[Jay Flemma]

Is Oakmont in the same league of difficulty as Winged Foot?  In back to back years, the winning scores at each open from '83 & '84 was -4.  Now Winged Foot also had several scores over par several times in its history.  Conversely, Oakmont surrendered the 63.  But still, can Oakmont play over par?  Will it?

What about in comparison with other venues?  Is Oakmont the second-toughest Open venue?  If not, what is?  How would you rank the difficulty of the Open venues say 1-10?

[Tommy Williamsen]

They can make Oakmont so difficult that it could be unplayable.  The slope and speed of the greens make good putting essential and accurate iron play fundamental.  If the rough is up and the drive misses the fairway a deft touch around the greens is mandatory.
Yes indeed Oakmont can be a beast.  
I am still proud that the first time I played it I did not have one three putt.

[Jay Flemma]

Tht is a great golf trophy to have, no three putts at oakmont.  How many did you take?

[Jim Sweeney]

Given the new look at Oakmont it would be exceedingly difficult make the comparison with Winged Foot or with Oakmont Opens past.

I would have no idea how to rank the ten toughest US OPen sites except to say that WF, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Congressional, Olympic, Southern Hills, Oak Hill and Oakland Hills would all make the list. Medinah, too, although it may never host again. Ditto Brookline. Pebble if the wind blows.

Trees play a huge role in every course except Shinny and Oakmont (now).

My guess is that Oakmont will prove to be a very tough venue. Any course is subject to a 63 at that level of competition.

OK, I'll try-
1. Winged Foot
2. Oakmont
3. Shinnecock
4. Oakland Hills
5. Olympic
6. Medinah
7. Congressional
8. Southern Hills
9. Brookline
10. Pebble Beach

[mike_malone]

 Hope not!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tht is a great golf trophy to have, no three putts at oakmont.  How many did you take?

Jay, I made two birdies (4&17) and got up and dow seven times.  It was ten years ago and I still remember mosst of the shots in my threesome.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

The greens at Oakmont will play roughly the same as they have for past Opens.  But the new bunkers at Oakmont will play much much tougher.  There are a number of traps now at Oakmont that if you get in, you have no chance.  This will be the hardest of all Opens.

JC

[wsmorrison]

What if it does play harder?  What if it doesn't?  They are two different courses, played in two different years under different conditions.  No matter how the scores compare or not, what understanding can you gain?

[Dan Boerger]

Jay - I think the weather will have a great deal to do with how difficult Oakmont (or any course for that matter) plays. Par is just a number, and I don't care if the USGA makes all par fours under 400 yards par threes, just to protect the color red from appearing on the scoreboard. What I hope for is a fair test of golf -- which Winged Foot was and which I suspect Oakmont will be.

[JESII]

Does anyone on here know without question[/i] if Oakmont actually slows down their greens from daily play to host an Open?

My father played a couple PA amateurs there and then watched a short bit of the '94 Open and said it wasn't even close...he thought the US Open speed was close to two feet slower than in the state ams he played. By the way, in the second one of those he played 72 holes with  one three putt.

[wsmorrison]

It wouldn't surprise me if Open green speeds are slower than club championships at Oakmont.  I'd let them play the course the way the members do and the way the course is able to be set up.  There are too many amateurs playing in the tournament for courses to be set up with the speediest greens and tough pin positions.  There isn't enough daylight to get everyone around in an Amateur under championship conditions.  But for an Open?  Those guys should play the course at its best.

Maybe the USGA is cautious about setup so as to not walk the razor's edge and risk losing things before the event.  They seem to be cautious leading up to the tournament and then micromanaging everything during the tournament to get things to the edge.  That model surely didn't work at Shinnecock where the USGA pushed things over the edge.

I know a Pennsylvania course a lot closer to you that had green speeds a lot slower for the Amateur than everyday play.  Too many players to get around is the reason I've heard for slower green speeds and much easier pin positions.  To a lesser degree this was also true at the other qualifying site.

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

No three putts is indeed amazing.  But how many 4 putts or more did you have?  

[Jay Flemma]

Lee Trevino once said something along the lines of the way the keep the rough and greens at Oakmont, they could announce that they were playing the open there just a couple weeks before and they'd be ready.

I hear they really fast for regular play...how fast were they when you guys played?

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Before Tiger accomplished the rare feat of not hitting into one bunker at TOC when winning a few years back -- the next most impressive golf stat I can recall very quickly was Jack Nicklaus having only one three-putt green in 90 holes during his win over AP in the '62 US Open.

Oakmont is every bit the equal of WF / West -- in fact, I would say the western Pennsy course is the best parksland course I have ever played and one of my personal top ten layouts.

The course willbe stretched to reflect technology but the USGA and club should be wary in getting too frisky with the green speeds. The existing slopes and contours have served the game well and will do likewise when they compete this June.

[JESII]

I think the USGA knows (has learned) that their greatest exposure to appearing like overly penal ogre's is with a poor hole location / green speed combination. They'll tip toe lightly to the edge of the envelope...

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

Before Tiger accomplished the rare feat of not hitting into one bunker at TOC when winning a few years back -- the next most impressive golf stat I can recall very quickly was Jack Nicklaus having only one three-putt green in 90 holes during his win over AP in the '62 US Open.

Oakmont is every bit the equal of WF / West -- in fact, I would say the western Pennsy course is the best parksland course I have ever played and one of my personal top ten layouts.

The course willbe stretched to reflect technology but the USGA and club should be wary in getting too frisky with the green speeds. The existing slopes and contours have served the game well and will do likewise when they compete this June.

Thanks Matt...that was really insightful.  Do you have any idea how fast the greens will be or how high the rough?

[tlavin]

Here's my guess:

The greens will start out around 11.5 early in the week (practice rounds) and slowly move up to 13.5 by Sunday.  They may not be able to manage those speeds if it's too windy and sunny and they may not be able to get those speeds if its benign and wet, but 12 and up will present plenty of a challenge based on what has been reported about the slope of those greens.

In terms of rough height, my guess is that they'll try to keep the rough around 5".  This will be very difficult without being impossible and will allow the players to attempt to advance the ball to the putting surfaces.



And yes, I believe it will be as tough as Winged Foot.

[Phil Benedict]

In terms of rough height, my guess is that they'll try to keep the rough around 5".  This will be very difficult without being impossible and will allow the players to attempt to advance the ball to the putting surfaces.

It's a mystery to me how you can advance the ball very far from 5-inch high rough.  I am still amazed when I see how far some of the pros advance the ball out of such high rough.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue with rough is twofold -- it's overall length and more importantly the sheer density.

In 1983, when I attended the Open that year -- Oakmont was prepared with savage rough -- balls would routinely disappear and frankly how Larry Nelson shot 65-67 in the last two rounds borders on the mystical.

The simple fact is that day-to-day Oakmont doesn't need to be touched up to an extreme as other Open sites. The pedigree of the layout speaks for itself.

[Phil Benedict]

Oakmont will be easier for Michelson if he can hit his wayward drives into the areas where the gallery has trampled down the rough.  The angles may be hard but there won't be any trees to block his path.

[JohnV]

It really depends on the weather.  If it stays dry and the wind blows it could be incredibly tough.  A lot of rain before the championship and no wind and it could be a lot easier, although the rough would be thicker then.

[Kyle Harris]

Jay:

Before Tiger accomplished the rare feat of not hitting into one bunker at TOC when winning a few years back -- the next most impressive golf stat I can recall very quickly was Jack Nicklaus having only one three-putt green in 90 holes during his win over AP in the '62 US Open.

Oakmont is every bit the equal of WF / West -- in fact, I would say the western Pennsy course is the best parksland course I have ever played and one of my personal top ten layouts.

The course willbe stretched to reflect technology but the USGA and club should be wary in getting too frisky with the green speeds. The existing slopes and contours have served the game well and will do likewise when they compete this June.

You NEW Jersey people. For the last friekin time.

It's PennsyLVANIA.

 

[Jay Flemma]

Oakmont will be easier for Michelson if he can hit his wayward drives into the areas where the gallery has trampled down the rough.  The angles may be hard but there won't be any trees to block his path.

Might that also favor Tiger?

Whaddya think guys?  Tiger tends to win where Jack wins...wil he win at Oakmont?  Who can challenge him besides Phil?  Vijay?  Ogilvy?

[Phil Benedict]

Jay,

Obviously Tiger is never a bad bet.  I'm not sure Southern Hills will be to his liking at the PGA.  Course is pretty tight and has a bunch of doglegs, which together tend to neutralize his length advantage.  May be it doesn't matter now that he hits his 3-wood 290!

[tlavin]

It really depends on the weather.  If it stays dry and the wind blows it could be incredibly tough.  A lot of rain before the championship and no wind and it could be a lot easier, although the rough would be thicker then.

Truer words were seldom spoken vis a vis US Open setup.  Just compare Shinnecock vs. Olympia Fields.  Or compare the weekend at Olympia versus the Thursday/Friday rounds.  The sun and the fan make all the difference in the world and their presence puts the agronomists at the USGA on a real tightrope.  Sometimes they fall (Shinny) and sometimes they stay upright (Winged Foot) and sometimes they wind up with a mixed review (Olympia).

In terms of who it "favors", that is speculation, which we all enjoy on this site.  Any course and any setup favors Tiger because he has the shots, the nerve and the history to pull anything off, but the truth is that the US Open setup often serves to identify the luckiest or pluckiest player, not the best player.  Think Retief Goosen at Shinny or Michael Campbell at Pinehurst.  Were they the best players or just the pluckiest?  How Goosen and Campbell holed some of the putts on those baked greens still defies explanation.  They were the best that week, I guess you could say, but they clearly were the luckiest.

Not that there's anything wrong with luck...

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