Ganton 16th Cross Bunker

« **on:** February 02, 2007, 04:03:58 PM »

I'm working on a short piece on Ganton and I got to thinking about cross bunkers. The huge one at 16th may have, a long, long time ago caused some trepidation to the better player, but certainly not in the last 75 years. And yet there it is, exactly where it always was (I think so anyway, it looks like it has been there forever, if I'm wrong, please let me know Mark R?) Why has it not been moved further from the tee?

I would argue that cross bunkers do not really offer much of a test to the stronger player who knows, pretty much, how far he hits the ball. If he can carry the bunker he does. If not he lays up. On the other hand, the junior starting the game may look forward to the day that he or she can finally carry it, and when that day comes will surely tell all who will listen. The lesser player will know that only a decently struck shot will be safe, and and may exhale a breath of relief upon safely negotiating potential disaster. As MacKenzie states, hazards are there for the pleasure of the player, and I think this giant at Ganton, that many of us may pretty much ignore in the course of our round, may indeed still be a source of great enjoyment.

« **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2007, 04:10:05 PM »

does the bunker obstruct your view of any part of the landing area from the tee?

« **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:33:20 PM »

Lloyd Cole,

I think that's a dilema many courses face.

GCGC has some neat cross bunkers, but, due to land lock situations, moving the tees back is impossible, so, some cross and stand alone bunkers have become obsolete.

I've heard a number of proposals.

1 Move them
2 Retain them and build replicas in the new DZ
3 Leave them alone

One of the considerations if you either move them or retain them and build replicas in the new DZ is: how will they affect the lesser golfer ?

I tend to favor retaining them and building replicas in the new DZ provided the penalty to the lesser golfer isn't disproportionate.

The other solution, which I"m more in favor of is:
Reigning in I & B.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:47:20 PM »

If there is no room to place a tee further back, so that it does come into play...then just leave it and marvel at its antiquity!

« **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:54:16 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on February 02, 2007, 05:33:20 PM

Lloyd Cole,

I think that's a dilema many courses face.

GCGC has some neat cross bunkers, but, due to land lock situations, moving the tees back is impossible, so, some cross and stand alone bunkers have become obsolete.

Pat
I almost wrote this - are they obsolete for juniors and women? Scratch that.

Are they obsolete for all players? Are they still a thrill to a junior or a weaker player?

« **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:10:55 PM »

Patric Dickinson wrote thusly about Ganton's bunkers in 'A Round of Golf Courses' -"Bunkers are of two kinds: there are the solid crusher's of golfing crimes; obvious as the treads of policemen's boots; these catch and deal with such lags as the nasty short slice, the smothering quick hook; even the head-up top: but there are other bunkers: beautiful alluring sirens, daring us to steer too near them, rallying our faint hearts to carry over them, and sneering at out feebleness if we tke the middle course (middle-aged course, they mock). Ganton's bunkers are peculiarly sweet singing creatures that lie about in exquisitely nonchalant attitudes, just off the line... a beautiful example is the long one shot third; another is the 6th. But there is a great number of them and all of them welcome little golf balls in 'with gently-smiling jaws'".

He desribes the cross-bunker at the 16th as a "real Superintendent".

Dickinson also suggest visitors to Ganton come from the south over the hills from Driffield. It is out of the way over B roads "climbing slowly up to to Foxholes, and then suddenly over Ganton Brow, the whole wide rich valley of the River Derwent lies before you, and there away below, a positive Eldorado of golden bunkers, is the links"

« **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:22:36 PM »

Peter I've been meaning to do a thread about Mr Dickinson's fine book for ages. For my money he's the most eloquent and gifted essayist of courses. For anyone who still hasn't picked up on him, his slim volume of 18 GB&I coourse reviews was recently on sale second hand from Rhod McEwan Books for £4. The best value for money I have ever spent on golf.

I believe they were collected together from his writings for the Daily Telegraph? Does anyone know if there might be more that wern't included n the book?

« **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:29:40 PM »

You got me by about 10:1. And I still got a good value. Amazon has about a dozen paperbacks, Barnes and Noble has two paperbacks and two first editions.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:40:06 PM »

BY leaving them in situ, it still challenges the less skilled and avoiding the bunkers makes their round.

« **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:50:02 PM »

I loved the 16th at Ganton. I do think they could move the bunker 40 years though or add additional bunkering..

« **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2007, 11:02:10 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd_Cole on February 02, 2007, 05:54:16 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on February 02, 2007, 05:33:20 PM
Lloyd Cole,

I think that's a dilema many courses face.

GCGC has some neat cross bunkers, but, due to land lock situations, moving the tees back is impossible, so, some cross and stand alone bunkers have become obsolete.

Pat
I almost wrote this - are they obsolete for juniors and women? Scratch that.

Are they obsolete for all players? Are they still a thrill to a junior or a weaker player?

Lloyd,

Today, Juniors hit the ball a mile.

But, I know what you meant.

No, they're not obsolete for everyone, but, they're obsolete for a disproportionate percentage of the membership, especially when compared to those they interfaced with at their introduction.

Hole # 16 is a perfect example.

It's a terrific hole, but the crossing bunkers have become obsolete to a large percentage of the membership.

To a degree, so has the right side cross bunker on # 1, the stepped cross bunkers on # 10, the cross bunkers on # 11 and the cross bunker on # 17. Only the cross bunker on
# 15 remains unbreached.

The only "perfect"

solution is a dial back.

« **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2007, 06:11:42 AM »

Lloyd, That cross-bunker still strikes fear into the double-digit handicapper. No, it's not difficult to clear it, but like the Cape bunker at Royal North Devon, it still gives a thrill. The problem for the bigger hitter is not to tangle with the trees on the left of the fairway, while not running out of fairway on the right, aided by the downslope which comes into play for the bigger hitters. The landing zone for the good player is quite narrow.

« **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2007, 12:18:57 PM »

Quote from: Racetrack_George on February 02, 2007, 04:10:05 PM

does the bunker obstruct your view of any part of the landing area from the tee?

The hole plays downhill after the bunker, so yes. However, without the bunker almost as much would still be blind in terms of seeing the ball land.

« **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2007, 04:53:48 AM »

The fact that you can't see the landing area and that the cross bunker is flanked by the trees that do come into play does, for me at least interfere with the drive. I don't think the hole would look as narrow to me if the bunker wasn't there, if that makes any sense.

« **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2007, 11:54:57 AM »

Quote from: Tony Muldoon on February 02, 2007, 06:22:36 PM

Peter I've been meaning to do a thread about Mr Dickinson's fine book for ages. For my money he's the most eloquent and gifted essayist of courses. For anyone who still hasn't picked up on him, his slim volume of 18 GB&I coourse reviews was recently on sale second hand from Rhod McEwan Books for £4. The best value for money I have ever spent on golf.

I believe they were collected together from his writings for the Daily Telegraph? Does anyone know if there might be more that wern't included n the book?

The brilliance of Dickinson's book has come up before. As I recall, Mark Rowlinson actually worked with Dickinson at one time at the BBC.

His book is without question one of the best and most under-appreciated books ever written on the game. It's our loss that it was his only book on golf.

Bob

« **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:01:42 PM »

we recently put in this bunker on our 16th hole, which as you can see is only about 75 yards off the tee. combined with a new back tee, it really obstructs your view of landing area from the new tee. the men's tee is further to the left and the bunker does not obstruct view as much from there. i can say that even though the bunker is not in play at all for me, i have never hit it in there, it gives you just a little less of a comfort level not being able to see as much from that tee.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2007, 01:54:04 PM »

Quote

The brilliance of Dickinson's book has come up before. As I recall, Mark Rowlinson actually worked with Dickinson at one time at the BBC.

Bob, I actually bought the book last year based on your comments. Meant to thank you for the tip and never did. Can't believe so much pleasurable reading could be had for $1.50 (and then there are those drawings....

)

« **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2007, 02:11:24 PM »

I played Ganton back in Sep 1996 and remember easily going over the subject bunker and getting into tree trouble left.. at this point in my first and only round there, it was just another visual deception to address at a course that was full of challenges, many more-so than experienced at St. Andrews.. How to traverse it, in hindsight, was really the issue that I failed to capture..

p.s. i trust the big tree is still there on 18?

« **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2007, 02:15:21 PM »

Andy - Glad to hear you bought it. I plunked down some cash several months ago and got a first edition. I probably paid too much, but I couldn't resist.

I had forgotten the passage quoted above from the Ganton chapter. It may be the best description I've read of two very different bunker functions.

Bob

« **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2007, 04:07:32 AM »

Quote from: Tony Muldoon on February 02, 2007, 06:22:36 PM

Peter I've been meaning to do a thread about Mr Dickinson's fine book for ages. For my money he's the most eloquent and gifted essayist of courses. For anyone who still hasn't picked up on him, his slim volume of 18 GB&I coourse reviews was recently on sale second hand from Rhod McEwan Books for £4. The best value for money I have ever spent on golf.

Tony
I found a second hand copy on amazon for £4.50. On your recommendation I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival!

« **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:55:58 AM »

Sean

That's a fantastic description of the allure and fear of bunkers! I'm awaiting this slim masterpiece more eagerly than I was when I ordered it

All this talk of Ganton's bunkers is making me seriously think of fitting in a trip there either pre or post Buda

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