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Jeff Doerr

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Lay of the land greens
« on: January 31, 2007, 10:51:25 PM »
I enjoyed a nice winter outing with my son this past weekend and was reminded again of one of my favorite natural greens. The 6th hole at Eastmoreland (H. Chandler Egan) is a par 5 that has a green that I would guess is still the original. It follows the natural slope and is steep from right to left, and a little front to back. I can't imangine this green being built in any of the years between 1930 and about 1995. What are some other great greens that follow the "Lay of the land"?

Do any of you have images of some of these greens?

My pictures of #6 are a little distant, but it is readily seen how the green slope matches the natural terrain.



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Jeff Doerr

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 12:56:51 AM »
John K's comment on the "E" green at the Sheep Ranch also made me think about these kind of greens...

"I don't understand how this green can be both natural and undoubtedly Doak."
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RJ_Daley

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 01:05:29 AM »
Jeff, you might like to try Rustic Canyon if you find yourself in north of L.A.  Many of the greens there and the course in general runs "lay of the land".
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TEPaul

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 06:44:35 AM »
Jeff:

I call that kind of thing "landform" greens but lay of the land greens may be more descriptive.

I'm a big fan of that kind of thing, and matter of fact traveled up to Boston last summer for that reason--eg to find "landform" greens. My destination was really Myopia because I thought with a course that old considered so good I'd find a number of them there and perhaps I did. My favorite was Myopia's 4th.

I may be wrong about this but I've noticed that back in the 1920s the greens of Pine Valley were described as to what kind of construction method they variously were and only one was referred to as the "natural" green---the 16th. That may mean it was just planted and never really touched other than that. Looking at it I guess that's certainly possible.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 06:46:12 AM by TEPaul »
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Mike_Young

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 07:13:19 AM »
Jeff,
Lay of the land greens are great if the situation allows such.....and by that I mean drainage, grasses on the green that can exist with the same fertilizers and pesticides as grasses surrounding the gree etc.....in most cases they will not work......then or now.....IMO
Mike
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 07:34:00 AM »
Mike,

I'm curious why a lay of the land green has to be more compatible with it's surrounds than any other "design", especially concerning fertilizers and pesticides.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 07:40:01 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on February 01, 2007, 07:34:00 AM
Mike,

I'm curious why a lay of the land green has to be more compatible with it's surrounds than any other "design", especially concerning fertilizers and pesticides.

Joe
Joe,
I am sure you know more on the pesticide/fertilizer issues than I do but I have seen many instances where a bermuda grass surround needed a specific rate and if it washed on a bentgrass green it could damage it.......
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2007, 07:46:24 AM »
Mike,

It would an extreme slope adjacent to a green that would allow that to happen, and that would only be in a very hard rainfall event. A super can handle that situation easily. Drop spreaders and hand irrigation takes the unknowns out of the equation.

At Landfall Club in Wimington, NC, we had bermudagrass fairways surrounded by centipedegrass roughs. As you know, these grasses are exact opposites in their nitrogen requirements. The super had us use walk behind drop spreaders to fertilize the first 6 feet of the border of those two grasses. I was expensive (labor) but it worked.

I wouldn't avoid a lay of the land green because of this issue. Drainage is a much bigger issue, in my opinion.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2007, 07:54:09 AM »
I just could not agree more with what I think Mike Young said above or perhaps intends to say;

"Lay of the land" greens to be really good and really cool need some really good natural topography for a variety of reasons, particularly drainage and also neat playability.

In other words, the dividing line between really cool "lay of the land" greens (like the 4th at Myopia) and ultra bland "lay of the land" greens can be pretty small.

If you just put a green on basically a flat naturally featureless piece of ground what do you have but a basically flat naturally featureless green that basically doesn't do a damn thing for anyone?   It may have a nice looking natural flow to its top line or whatever but that's about the extent of it.

I hate to say it Jeff, but unless that entire green site and surrounding are in the photo above has something like some nice natural tilt or slope to it somehow I would really question its quality in play.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 08:16:44 AM by TEPaul »
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TEPaul

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2007, 08:22:25 AM »
Sean:

On that little 11th green with a decent greenspeed I doubt you could prevent a recovery from just over that green from going off the front.
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2007, 08:33:20 AM »
I alsway thought that Garden City has many of these types of greens, there they really are just extensions of the fairways. I personally like more defination that this, but it seems to work there.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff Doerr

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2007, 09:41:30 AM »
Thanks Gents.

The greensite on #6 does have a lot of slope - probably more than I showed in the pictures.

As I recall, #10 at Rustic really has this feature. It is a huge green on a par 5 that just develops out of the fairway. It is probably 80 yards of puttable surface with nice natural movement to it.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2007, 09:50:54 AM »
Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on February 01, 2007, 08:33:20 AM
I alsway thought that Garden City has many of these types of greens, there they really are just extensions of the fairways. I personally like more defination that this, but it seems to work there.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Anthony,

You beat me to the punch on that one because i had to go into a meeting before I could post!  ;)

I'd have to say that lay of the land greens are my absolute favorite type of green, for many of the reasons already mentioned.  

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Mike Hendren

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 10:21:03 AM »
I like the 14th green at Doak's Quail Crossing.  The extremely long green is sited just beyond a small rise in the fairway and falls away naturally toward the rear.  The entire left side is maintained as a straight edge and looks really cool to boot.

If I recall correctly, Tom once told me that this was one of several greens there that he actually shaped.  

Mike
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 10:23:40 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2007, 10:25:01 AM »
You want a "lay of the land green?"

Try this one on for size:  Current #3, original #1, Royal Liverpool Golf Club as seen at the 2006 Open Championship at Hoylake



That was the burnt out look!

Here's the greener look as seen three months later at the Buda Cup, and yes, over the cop is OB!



(Captain Rich Goodale not looking too pleased as his teammates, McBride and Disher, lose the hole in this foursome match.  :P )
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2007, 10:29:26 AM »
Bill,

Perfect example.  I get envious every time I see those pics of Royal Liverpool.   :P ;D
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Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 11:05:19 AM »
Having just walked The Island I was struck by how many of the greens appeared as extensions of the fairway. Even when there were substatial elevation changes involved. Personally I found this to enhance the overall natural/found golf, rather than designed golf, feel of the place.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 11:14:11 AM »
Quote from: TEPaul on February 01, 2007, 07:54:09 AM

I hate to say it Jeff, but unless that entire green site and surrounding are in the photo above has something like some nice natural tilt or slope to it somehow I would really question its quality in play.

Tom, This part of the golf course is immersed in a naturalness that exudes the verdant NW.(save for the tee shot)
What makes the sixth green in Portland so great is the tilt, but also, the lack of visual evidence that it tilts. Mr. Egan's green is set just below the level of the fairway which makes it hard to see. Even in the pictures it's hard to tell it's slanted. On my virgin (and only) approach, I didn't know which side of the flag to play to. It was confusing. But, then I remembered the whole hole. On the tee shot, This hole is bordered by some large homes way up the hill on the right. Remembering that made the decision easy for me.

Eastmorland has great bones. Sadly, they're in the hands of that plastic surgeon from the film "Brazil".

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:15:03 AM by Adam Clayman »
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archie_struthers

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2007, 11:40:17 AM »
Hey guys,

Thanks for some great pictures!  Isn't that fronting bunker at Myopia just awesome..  Imagine tucking the pin roght behind that beauty.

As to the Royal Liverpool pics, can't you just see the jockeys bringing the horses around the hedges turning for home.

A great golf hole with an ancillary use. Only on GCA
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TEPaul

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2007, 11:47:25 AM »
Archie:

I think that fronting bunker at Myopia's 4th may be quite a lot more removed from the green than it looks in that photo. I don't even remember it which I guess only shows how unobservant I can be sometimes. I guess I was just over-marveling at how beautifully that green sat in there.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2007, 11:49:04 AM by TEPaul »
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mike_malone

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2007, 11:50:16 AM »
 Archie,

    How many Twisted Dune greens have no raised front? I'm thinking of a few at least.
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AKA Mayday

Jon Earl

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2007, 11:56:59 AM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on February 01, 2007, 10:53:09 AM
Here are a few more good examples.  It may be very surprising which course the 1st pic is from as it has a reputation for being a wild place.



Another good example from Alwoodley


Ciao

1st pic - the 2nd at Addington? The green follows the downward slope of the fairway which leaves a deceptively quick putt if you find yourself below the hole especially from the right.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2007, 12:38:14 PM »
Quote from: archie_struthers on February 01, 2007, 11:40:17 AM
Hey guys,

Thanks for some great pictures!  Isn't that fronting bunker at Myopia just awesome..  Imagine tucking the pin roght behind that beauty.


Archie,

That bunker at Myopia, which looks to be about 30-40 yards short of the green surface, is EXACTLY what I have previously suggested to you needs to be done on 18 at TD!  

The 18th at Muirfield is another example, but this one might even be more worthy of emulation.

Glad to see you finally agree with me!  ;)  ;D

ps...meant to respond to your note but the Merion threads held me captive for the past few months.   Thankfully, that addiction is fading now...
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mike_malone

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 01:29:04 PM »
In that first photo from Sean is that Wayne Morrison holdin' up the whole friggin' golf course?
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KBanks

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Re:Lay of the land greens
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2007, 02:28:19 PM »
Would Merion #5 and Cuscowilla #13 qualify?
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