[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

In the January 27, 2007 issue of Golfweek, writer Josh Stens and photographer Scott A. Miller take us on a wonderful journey to golf in the San Francisco area. We learn about Harding Park, Lincoln Park and Presidio, but not a mention of  Gleneagles Golf Course, a lovely 9-hole layout located within the confines of The City.

Once again, a 9-hole course is snubbed.

Oh the humanity.

[Eric Pevoto]

With regard to Gleneagles, it can't be for a lack of story.  Sounds like a purist's paradise.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Eric,

Gleneagles is a wonderful place full of true characters. This is just another example of somebody making the decision not to even visit because "it's only 9 holes." Yeah, good call on his part.

Nevertheless, my quest to bring 9-hole courses back to their rightful place of honor continues!

Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Gents:  let's keep something in mind.  Gleneagles is good fun, but a "purist's paradise"?  It is a wonderful place in some ways, and yes one will likely see true characters there, btu it's also in a very dangerous area, and the course, while difficult, really isn't all THAT great...

And in terms of your quest Anthony, well it would seem quixotic to me.  Your book is cool for sure.... I just never thought of it as part of a quest for acceptance for 9-hole golf... it seemed like a celebration of the odd to me.  See, the vast majority of golfers will never consider 9-hole courses "real" courses, as great as some of them may be.  Golf does remain an 18-hole sport, for better or worse.

But tilting at windmills is admirable... so tilt away, Anthony.  I'm guessing Childs is your Sancho Pancho?  But now I read another who would fit the role quite well....

In any case I can easily understand a story on SF golf leaving this out - the writer and photographer didn't want to get mugged!

TH

[Eric Pevoto]

OK, OK.  Hyberbole.  I've never seen the place, but it seems to have an interesting "culture."

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

W.

Add together the golf, the views and the ridiculously low prices of the single malt Scotch in the restaurant/bar/pro shop and Gleneagles is worth the risk.

I too have heard about this 9-hole book. Let's hope lots and lots and lots of people purchase it and take up the cause.

Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom,

Your portrayal of the dangers of playing Gleneagles is overstated to say the least. I played the course, walked the course, drove through the neighborhood and lived unscathed to tell about it. Is it a rough area, sure, but don't make it sound like downtown Baghdad.

Shining a light on 9-hole golf courses is hardly tilting at windmills.

To classify the courses in the book in one broad-brush stroke as "odd" is an innacurate portrayal of some wonderful layouts, architecture, and most of all, really, really fun golfing experiences.

But if that is how you see them, so be it. Thanks for buying the book and adding to the discourse.

Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

Ask 100 golfers to name their favorite courses and 99 will do so without naming a 9-hole course; and it's just because they don't think of them as "courses" at all.  That's what I mean by "odd."  These courses are the weird outliers of the golf world.  That doesn't make them bad, that doesn't deny that some are great fun, that doesn't deny that some exhibit wonders of design; it's just going to be a VERY difficult road for you to hoe if you expect many golfers to accept them as real golf courses.

And it's not how I personally see them... hell I love 9-hole courses... go read my entry under My Home Course.  

I just don't expect my views to be shared, nor do I try to spread them.

So I do find your quest as quixotic; but just remember, Don Quixote has been purchased gazillions of times, so as a writer you ought to take this as a compliment.

 

Re Gleneagles, you went there once and emerged unscathed.  Others were not so fortunate - the stories are many.  In any case sure it's not Baghdad, but well... for many people the surrounding area plus the stories of on-course muggings are enough to keep them away.  Hey I've played there many times and have never suffered any harm either... the point is, the difficult area just does need to be mentioned, and kept in mind, if one is discussing this course.  For some it might add to the experience though... it just shouldn't be denied, that's all.

TH

[tlavin]

In the January 27, 2007 issue of Golfweek, writer Josh Stens and photographer Scott A. Miller take us on a wonderful journey to golf in the San Francisco area. We learn about Harding Park, Lincoln Park and Presidio, but not a mention of  Gleneagles Golf Course, a lovely 9-hole layout located within the confines of The City.

Once again, a 9-hole course is snubbed.

Oh the humanity.

I say this as a member of the best 9-hole club in the country (Dunes Club), but the problem with 9-hole courses is that they're only 9 holes long!

I read and greatly enjoyed your book, but the campaign to put 9-hole courses on the rating map stands the same chance of success of the surge or the escalation or the enhancement or the augmentation or whatever other poppycock Bush is trying to sell.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've played and been a member of the same nine hole course my entire life (except for a brief stint in Chicago). Nine hole courses are the norm and not "wierd" in rural areas.  

How many nine hole courses exist in the county...Is it as high as 20% of the total.

[JohnV]

I too have heard about this 9-hole book. Let's hope lots and lots and lots of people purchase it and take up the cause.

Somebody got me that book for Christmas.  It is in its rightful place in the pile below all the books on 18 holes courses that I have to read.

Actually it looks very good and is probably the next golf book I read after I finish the Decisions on the Rules of Golf (I have to go to school next month.)

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

John,

If you don't find the book on 9 holes satisfying, you could always read it again.

Terry,

In my humble opinion, you belong to the second-best 9-hole course in the country. Whitinsville is king.

Anthony

[Brad Klein]

Actually, the number of 9-holers is 29% of all courses in the country. According to the NGF, of 16,052 courses in the U.S, there are 4,590 nine hole layouts. If each of them buys this book for the shop, that's a healthy sales spurt -- deserved, I might add.

[Tom Huckaby]

Actually, the number of 9-holers is about 25% of all courses in the country. If each of them buys this book for the shop, that's 4,000 sales -- deserved, I might add.

Well hush my mouth.  I guess calling them weird outliers is stretching things as well.  

But I still find Anthony's quest Quixotic... but as I say, quixotic causes tend to make money.... perhaps more than mainstream?

That is... if I can read about Gleneagles in GolfWeek, why buy Anthony's book?  Methinks he ought to be praising the GW writer....  

TH

[Matt_Cohn]

I think Gleneagles was snubbed because it would be a shocking for anyone visiting San Francisco from far away to take four hours out of their trip to go play there. It's great that it's available for locals and it would be tremendous loss if it ever went away. It's also one of the last places in San Francisco I would recommend to a tourist - golf or otherwise.

Anthony, if I had to choose 1,000 words to describe Gleneagles, "lovely" wouldn't be one of them. How many Golfweek readers, given the chance to play Gleneagles, would be excited that they spent four hours there rather than, say, using that 4 hours to go visit Alcatraz or Sausalito? I'd wager the answer is zero. I think that's why it was ignored in the article. If Olympic's 9-holer were public, I'm sure it would be mentioned. Was the GG Park course mentioned at all?

There's certainly no shortage of Gleneagles articles in publications aimed at local players.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom,

Nine states have more 9-hole courses than 18. Maine and Alaska are the only ones outside the West.

Matt,

I'll bet you a $1 the writer took one look at the info on Gleneagles, saw 9 holes and wrote it off. At least in the Where to play section is has to get a mention. It is IN San Francsico after all.

Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

That's very cool.  But I still stand by my take here.  Most golfers don't consider them real courses... they are half a course... and they take what they can get in Maine and Alaska, wishing they had full courses.

Matt is right on re Gleneagles.  Oh, you may be correct about the GW writers... but still, Gleneagles is what it is.  I can't see tourists seeking it out any more than I can see them seeking out Northwoods - for exactly the same reasons.

Which of course I still think SHOULD have you thanking the golf gods for the state of things.... if one wants to know about 9-hole courses, there's currently ONE good source... why on earth do you want the competition?

TH

[Wyatt Halliday]

Can someone help:

Are the Golfweek modern/classic/state-by-state rankings an annual affair?

[Brad Klein]

Yes (to immediately above question)

[John Keenan]

I played Gleneagles a few week back with my son. We both enjoyed it and plan to go back. Is it or should it be a tourist destination? I sincerely doubt it. Is that bad ? NO Does that in any way diminish its value? Well not to my son and I.

On the danger front I was not to concerned. I have heard the stories but usually they get better with the telling. No doubt some things have happened but I would not defer from playing for that reason.

On 9 Hole courses I enjoy them and yes they are the Rodney Dangerfield of the golf world getting no respect. Anthony I am in your camp on this one.

[Tom Huckaby]

John:

You're local, right?

Heck I like the course also.  I don't think it's so great that it absolutely needs to be included in a mention of SF destinations (which seems to be the point of the article - that is, it wasn't written for locals)... but I enjoy playing there whenever I go, for sure.  And yes it's not THAT dangerous, but again remember the point of the article... would you really recommend the place to visitors?

I too enjoy 9-hole courses, and executive courses and par threes.  I tend to seek them out, and my friends think I'm crazy for doing so.

But that's the point:  I find them fun, but I don't believe they're real golf courses so to speak... they're a fun diversion for sure, but not to be confused with the real thing.  They're half-size or shortened versions of the real thing.

TH

[Jonathan Cummings]

Brad - that's really true - a quarter of the courses in the US are 9-holers??  That's surprising to me for I thought there were much less.

I guess I have to go out and get Tony's book!!

J

[Brad Klein]

Jonathan, you're the statistics maven. Would I lie with objective scientific evidence like that? Not 25%. 29%.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jonathan,

The National Golf Foundation state-by-state statistics I used for the book had a total of 15,892 regulation courses - no par-3s or executive layouts. There were 11,248 courses that had 18 holes or more and 4,644 nine-hole courses. Iowa led the way with 274 nine-holers and Texas followed with 273. Delaware is the only state in single digits with four.

Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

You make a good point Tom,

The intended audience of that article was not bay area residents specifically.  I was born and raised in the East Bay so sketchy neighboorhoods were not an uncommon site to me. But even I knew better not to go into most Oakland neighboorhoods, day or night.

Having been in that neighboorhood in San Fran, while sure its not Oakland, the alarm bells and whistles were going off to keep on driving thru.

So why in the world would one recommend a tourist be directed into those parts?

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