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Doug Wright

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Shrinkage
« on: January 30, 2007, 01:16:32 PM »
No, I'm not talking about the famous Seinfeld episode.... ::) :o

Joel Stewart's excellent comparative photos of Olympic Club #8 in the "degradation of a hole" thread and my experience of Ron Prichard's restoration of Ross's greens at Minikahda, lead me to ask why clubs often allow greens to shrink so dramatically, and don't take steps to enlarge and restore the greens to their size as designed. This would seem to be an easy way to add cup positions and interest to any golf course.

Thoughts on this? Or are the responses the same as on Joel's thread, it's the membership/club leadership's fault etc. Just seems like an easy thing for the club/supers to do. But maybe there's no such thing as "easy".

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tlavin

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2007, 01:25:33 PM »
I've always heard that the shrinkage is insidious and caused by mowing patterns over the years.  One of the tricky issues encountered when clubs try to "recapture" lost putting surface caused by shrinkage is that different species of grass typically has overtaken the turfgrass from the green (i.e. poa) and it is difficult to simply mow the grass lower and lower until you get to putting height.
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Adam Clayman

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 01:31:53 PM »
It's not uncommon for the greens mower to miss by an inch, or even a fraction. Over time those fractions and inches add up.

I think it was Don Mahaffey who first turned us on to the concept of burying a wire at the proper greens edge. Then using a metal detector to locate the line on occasion.

As for grasses crowding out the collars, I'm under the impression that the green's Bent varieties are agressive and move outward in many circumstances.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2007, 01:49:05 PM »
It's not caused by cold water?
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JNagle

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 02:01:04 PM »
Doug -

The process can be teadious and is often times more intensive than looks.  Aside from the process of regrassing (sodding, gassing/regrassing, use of plugs, mowing down....)there are other factors that impact the decision to expand greens.  Budget, location of existing irrigation (It's not wise to run irrigation lines underneath green surface), maintenance practices (walk mowing vs. riding), grass types found in the reduced greens areas.  I have always felt that the green expansions end up being the best part of course restoration.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

JESII

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 02:02:56 PM »
Quote from: MPCirba on January 30, 2007, 01:49:05 PM
It's not caused by cold water?

No, it's caused by an Irish ancestry...
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tlavin

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 02:03:49 PM »
Quote from: JES II on January 30, 2007, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: MPCirba on January 30, 2007, 01:49:05 PM
It's not caused by cold water?

No, it's caused by an Irish ancestry...
 

The angry inch.
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2007, 02:09:50 PM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on January 30, 2007, 02:03:49 PM
Quote from: JES II on January 30, 2007, 02:02:56 PM
Quote from: MPCirba on January 30, 2007, 01:49:05 PM
It's not caused by cold water?

No, it's caused by an Irish ancestry...
 

The angry inch.

It's not so much the pointin' as it is the laughin'.....

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JESII

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2007, 02:16:07 PM »
Now I'm crying...

Tell me again what were goin to do with that wire, and where are are we going to bury it? this kind of makes me nervous Adam...
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TEPaul

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 02:23:29 PM »
I think in almost every case this kind of thing is so gradual that clubs are basically unaware it's happened. I'm only aware of one classic course that seems to have done this kind of thing on purpose in modern times.
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BCrosby

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 02:25:09 PM »
"It's not so much the pointin' as it is the laughin'....."

Joe - Perfect.
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Doug Wright

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 02:33:43 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on January 30, 2007, 02:23:29 PM
I think in almost every case this kind of thing is so gradual that clubs are basically unaware it's happened. I'm only aware of one classic course that seems to have done this kind of thing on purpose in modern times.

Yes TE but once it becomes apparent it seems clubs don't make any effort to reverse the situation. Or do they?
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Sean_Tully

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 02:38:52 PM »
One issue that comes up with our greens is that they are so big and easy to hit. Of course, it all depends on where your ball ends up. Being that the 8th is a short par three of about 130 yards, is it possible that the green size was reduced to award accuracy.

From a historical reference, the greens of old were rather large. At my club due to water restrictions and the depression they reduced the size of the greens to the length of the hose that they used to water the greens. There are a lot of other factors as well.

GPS can help to keep an eye on things over time among other things. We actually measure the distance from all of our greens heads to the edge of the green and will periodically check to see if it needs to be corrected.


Tully
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A.G._Crockett

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 03:45:57 PM »
Might this be an even bigger issue in the South?  In the summer when bermuda is really jumping, the bent tends to be stressed, and you get shrinkage over time.
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 05:04:18 PM »
With all the modern equipment like GPS and wire tracers and such one can effectively map any part of any golf course and manage it accordingly.
If maintaining green shape and size is important to any club then there is absolutely no reason green shrinkage should ever happen and I'm not buying any excuses from anyone who tries to justify it because of mowing equipment or whatever else. Now, if its a matter of money, that's something different and smaller greens are better then no greens at all.

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Kalen Braley

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 05:42:23 PM »
I think mowing is apart of it.

Every now and then when I'm playing a course I'll see painted lines on the green instructing the mowers where the green needs to be enlarged. So it appears that they are making an effort to keep the original green sizes intact.
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 05:44:47 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on January 30, 2007, 05:42:23 PM
I think mowing is apart of it.

Don't ever do that again while I have a mouth full of wine.... ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Gary Slatter

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Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 05:49:54 PM »
we lose a bit every time we cut a green, and once a year bite the bullet and go back to the proper edge (in the spring when the grass is growing again and the overseeding is dying).
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kyle Harris

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 06:03:21 PM »
I think one of the largest influences over the course of the years has been the triplex mower.

While offering ease in cutting and a huge timesaver in labor, a lot of the older contours of the greens couldn't be cut with the triplex for turning/scalping reasons - especially on pushed up green pads.

Many larger, squarish greens have been reduced to a dozen or so passes with a triplex and one spin for the clean up.

Here's an example from Lekarica Hills by Stiles and Van Kleek:



I'll post more about Lekarica later.

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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 06:13:23 PM »
Quote from: Doug Wright on January 30, 2007, 01:16:32 PM


Joel Stewart's excellent comparative photos of Olympic Club #8 in the "degradation of a hole" thread and my experience of Ron Prichard's restoration of Ross's greens at Minikahda, lead me to ask why clubs often allow greens to shrink so dramatically, and don't take steps to enlarge and restore the greens to their size as designed.

Most clubs don't see it, they are unaware of the shrinkage because it's so gradual.

When you employ minimum wage workers to mow greens, workers who have little or no interest in architecture, you're not going to get a crew intent upon retention of the existing green lines or restoration of the original green lines.

With walking, and especially riding mowers, most crewmembers will shy away from steep slopes, which in turn alters the size and shape of the green.

This would seem to be an easy way to add cup positions and interest to any golf course.

It is, once you recognize the issue.

Thoughts on this? Or are the responses the same as on Joel's thread, it's the membership/club leadership's fault etc. Just seems like an easy thing for the club/supers to do. But maybe there's no such thing as "easy".

Many clubs now bury an electrical wire beneath the original or intended green line.  Charging it can identify the orginal green line long after it's shrunk.  This is fairly inexpensive to do and is a great aid in preserving green lines.

However, you have to have a club/committe or concerned individuals in the right positions who are alert and who care about these issues.

Without them, the shrinking continues.

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TEPaul

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 07:22:17 PM »
"Yes TE but once it becomes apparent it seems clubs don't make any effort to reverse the situation. Or do they?"

Doug Wright:

I think you may've misunderstood me. I meant I've only seen one classic course that dedicatedly shrunk their greens and turned them into sort of circles on purpose.

On the other hand, green expansions today seem to be the most popular element of restorations with memberships.
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 08:09:11 PM »
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

All you have all these reasons to justify greens shrinking...and if we're talking about 20, 30 40 years ago then fine I'm off base...but if your greens are shrinking ...at all...today... someone doesn't know how to do their job and it isn't the $8/hr guy on the mower.
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 08:15:22 PM »
Joe,
I hope it wasn't that homemade vino you were choking on ;D
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 08:19:26 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on January 30, 2007, 07:22:17 PM
"Yes TE but once it becomes apparent it seems clubs don't make any effort to reverse the situation. Or do they?"

Doug Wright:

I think you may've misunderstood me. I meant I've only seen one classic course that dedicatedly shrunk their greens and turned them into sort of circles on purpose.

On the other hand, green expansions today seem to be the most popular element of restorations with memberships.

OK, thanks TE.
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michael j fay

Re:Shrinkage
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2007, 08:31:24 PM »
Over the past dozen years or so many clubs have reversed this situation. The reinstatement of the original green size not only allows for more cupping but also brings back some of the very best pin positions on holes.

Reaching to the rear parameters on numerous Ross greens brings back some of the original strategy. If a pin is eight to ten feet from the back of a green that is severely sloped from back to front and the area behind the green is left unmanicured (as it was undoubtedly by Mr. Ross) the risk of going for a pin, even on a short hole, brings in the surety of bogey and the possibility of double bogey if the player overshoots the target.

Many of the areas lost on Ross greens over the years are what I call the shoulders. These are areas to the far left or right, front or rear that are in essence greens unto themselves. It heightens the peril of short siding oneself and sets up difficulty in two putting from some of the safe areas on the greens.

Some of the Ross courses where the expansion has created this type of situation are Salem, Aronimink, Pine Needles, Beverly, French Lick, Minikahda, Mimosa Hills and of course #2. This is by no means the entire list but I can tell you that this treatmnt worked exceptionally well at the US Senior Open in 2001 at Salem, where the new positions were widely used.

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