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Joe Bentham

Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« on: January 25, 2007, 05:08:39 PM »
Jack built Dismal River in Mullen and never played Sand Hills.  Could you imagine?
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Doug Ralston

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 05:38:28 PM »
Yes
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 05:43:47 PM »
I build roads and have never seen the Autobahn.
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 05:44:08 PM »
Joe - there was a discussion of this not too long ago..if you can figure out the search function you might find it

in a nutshell, somethought it was bad he didn't see SH, but others thought it was good so he had no preconceived ideas while building DR
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 05:46:29 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 25, 2007, 05:43:47 PM
I build roads and have never seen the Autobahn.

But if you had not studied how to do it, I wouldn't want to pay for your roads.
Lets say you haven't ever built a suspension bridge. Would you build on without any background in the matter?  ;)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 07:11:10 PM »
If anyone who saw American Idol last night, were treated to a show business industry concept. Never fail to kick a man when he's down.
 
Now, I do know the crew did get over to Sand Hills. Maybe if Jack had been there they wouldn't have had to do so much re-work.

The latest news out of DR is that there was a flood in the Tavern building. I think, one of the fire prevention systems pipes, exploded causing the flood. Not sure how extensive, but nonetheless, a mess.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 07:21:11 PM »
Joe,

There was a wonderful interview in Links a few years ago with Nicklaus talking about his design career. I'm trying to think who wrote it... Tom Doak? Nope, oh yeah, I did.

The list of courses Nicklaus has never set foot on, nevermind not played, boggles the mind. He told me if a course did not host a tournament in which he played or he has not done work on it then he has not been there. Lahinch, Prestwick, National Golf Links... the list goes on. He told me he knows nothing about Charles Blair Macdonald's designs. It was a one-on-one interview. His p.r. guy Scott Tolley was there and the USGA's Tim Moraghan also sat in for most of it.

Anthony
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:23:04 PM by Anthony Pioppi »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 07:31:04 PM »
Tony:

That was a few years ago, and Jack has seen a few other courses since that time.  I know he played National with Jim Lipe a few years back, he also played in events at Ballybunion and at Royal County Down, presumably not just because he was trying to win money there.  I would guess that if you went down the list of the top 100 courses in the world, Jack has played more of them than 80-90% of the people on this board -- and he is MUCH more familiar than most of us with places like Pebble Beach and St. Andrews.

While we were working at Sebonack, he did go out of his way to take some of his associates to Friars Head ... but that is the only Coore & Crenshaw course he's seen, and Sebonack is the only one of mine.  I don't think he believes he has much to learn from other practicing architects, and it puts him in an awkward position when he goes to a new course, because no one will let him just play and not tell them what he thinks.

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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 07:33:54 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on January 25, 2007, 07:21:11 PM
Joe,

There was a wonderful interview in Links a few years ago with Nicklaus talking about his design career. I'm trying to think who wrote it... Tom Doak? Nope, oh yeah, I did.

The list of courses Nicklaus has never set foot on, nevermind not played, boggles the mind. He told me if a course did not host a tournament in which he played or he has not done work on it then he has not been there. Lahinch, Prestwick, National Golf Links... the list goes on. He told me he knows nothing about Charles Blair Macdonald's designs. It was a one-on-one interview. His p.r. guy Scott Tolley was there and the USGA's Tim Moraghan also sat in for most of it.

Anthony


I remember the article well, and I'm still scratching my head...
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 07:36:43 PM »
You'de think the golfer in him would want to play such a great course, not to mention the designer. I have yet to experience simply walking a great golf course, but I must admit, the golfer inside me would be hard to keep in check. It would likely be extremely rewarding and equally frustrating.

TK
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 07:40:25 PM »
Gentlemen,

He's Jack Nicklaus.  You are not.

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 07:43:28 PM »
Tom,

I'm glad to hear he has played more courses and I'm sure he has a very difficult time visiting any layout.

What else astounded me that day was that we were talking about his early association with Pete Dye and I brought up how Dye was influenced by Macdonald and Raynor and Nicklaus told me he knew nothing about either of them.

He played in the British Senior Open at County Down and I was there. After his practice round, the first time he had seen the place, and in between idiotic questions from the non-golf UK press people, I asked if he learned anything new while he was out there and he gave me this look like I was an idiot and said something sarcastic along the lines of, "after all these years playing and designing what could I learn?" He then took a breath, and listed off a half dozen cool features he liked about the course.

Anthony


« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:44:52 PM by Anthony Pioppi »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 07:47:45 PM »
I'm not surprised he knew little about Macdonald and Raynor, considering he grew up in Ohio, and considering they haven't played a major championship (or even a Tour event) at a Macdonald course since before Jack was born!

Although, years ago, when I was working for Mr. Dye he was speaking highly of Camargo and Jack chimed in as to how highly he thought of it.
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 07:54:17 PM »
Quote from: Bogey_Hendren on January 25, 2007, 07:40:25 PM
He's Jack Nicklaus.  You are not.

Hell, we're not even Tom Weiskopf!

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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 07:54:47 PM »
That is amazing, I understand that the guy has been busy for the past 60 years, but you would think that if you had even the slightest interest in GCA you would want to see other clubs.

I suppose this asks the question, if he hadn't studied many famous courses, where did he form his design ideas??
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H.P.S.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 07:55:58 PM »
Quote from: Bogey_Hendren on January 25, 2007, 07:40:25 PM
Gentlemen,

He's Jack Nicklaus.  You are not.

Mike

Agreed, we are not!!

Could it have been that Jack just didn't have the connections to get on to Sand Hills?   ;)
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 07:58:17 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on January 25, 2007, 05:46:29 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on January 25, 2007, 05:43:47 PM
I build roads and have never seen the Autobahn.

But if you had not studied how to do it, I wouldn't want to pay for your roads.
Lets say you haven't ever built a suspension bridge. Would you build on without any background in the matter?  ;)

Or, would you drive on the frontage road if you were right next to the autobahn?  And, is it fair to say, the autobahn surfaces stand up to more traffic and lasts longer than your roads?  Who has more potholes per linear mile, Illiana or Germany?
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2007, 07:59:16 PM »
Quote from: Pat Craig on January 25, 2007, 07:54:47 PM
I suppose this asks the question, if he hadn't studied many famous courses, where did he form his design ideas??

250 trips around Augusta National Golf Club is a nice credential for starters.

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2007, 08:03:55 PM »
So Mike, what you're saying is that he has that whole Fazio remodelling thing down pat now... ;)
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Jason Blasberg

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2007, 08:31:42 PM »
It doesn't at all suprise me that he hasn't played some icon gca courses.  He has not the luxury of idle men like some of us here.  I'm sure the last thing he or anyone in his position wants to do in their spare time is play golf or travel to golf courses.  

He was always foremost a professional golfer and the playing and appearances and all of that is way more to handle than any of us realize.  Now I can see him traveling all over the World to remote places but while he was still playing competitively I couldn't imagine he'd have the stamina.

 
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Joe Bentham

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 08:57:44 PM »
Building a course with world-class ambitions so near to an established great course without seeing it sounds like bad career advice.  Especially when the nature of the property would bring such instant comparisons.  If only to know how high the bar had already been set.  I'm not questioning his design skills or credentials, only wondering out loud how many would have made the same choice.  
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2007, 09:11:06 PM »
I'd be astounded if Jack thought about little things like "career". Honestly...that's what seperates the men from the boys. Jack is way beyond "career".

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 09:13:07 PM »
Quote from: Jason Blasberg on January 25, 2007, 08:31:42 PM
It doesn't at all suprise me that he hasn't played some icon gca courses.  He has not the luxury of idle men like some of us here.  I'm sure the last thing he or anyone in his position wants to do in their spare time is play golf or travel to golf courses.  

He was always foremost a professional golfer and the playing and appearances and all of that is way more to handle than any of us realize.  Now I can see him traveling all over the World to remote places but while he was still playing competitively I couldn't imagine he'd have the stamina.

Jason, I think that you hit on the point that is so very hard for most of us to fathom.  Jack Nicklaus seems to be in the incongruous situation of being so involved in golf, and his name and brand synonomous with the game of golf and now course design, that he seems to hold disdain or contempt over all of it  -that isn't his.  I can't imagine flying to all corners of the earth on a routine basis, making those appearances to photo-op new projects, and schmooz potential new clients (many in Asia and far away from home).  How could he not be somewhat contemptuous of suggestions that he visit the competition or a design leader, practically across the road from one of his projects.  

Is it some sort of mindset that JN might say: that I have loved golf so much, I have gotten so much from it, that I can't stand to see anymore of it than I possibly have to... ?
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Joe Bentham

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 09:22:52 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 25, 2007, 09:11:06 PM
I'd be astounded if Jack thought about little things like "career". Honestly...that's what seperates the men from the boys. Jack is way beyond "career".
Joe
And maybe that is the answer to my question.  He might be the only one who wouldn't check Sand Hills out.

RJ--
would that mindset allow you to be the best GCA you could be?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 09:26:53 PM by Joe Bentham »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Nicklaus and Sand Hills....
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2007, 09:26:25 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 25, 2007, 07:31:04 PM
Tony:

That was a few years ago, and Jack has seen a few other courses since that time.  I know he played National with Jim Lipe a few years back, he also played in events at Ballybunion and at Royal County Down, presumably not just because he was trying to win money there.  I would guess that if you went down the list of the top 100 courses in the world, Jack has played more of them than 80-90% of the people on this board -- and he is MUCH more familiar than most of us with places like Pebble Beach and St. Andrews.

While we were working at Sebonack, he did go out of his way to take some of his associates to Friars Head ... but that is the only Coore & Crenshaw course he's seen, and Sebonack is the only one of mine.  I don't think he believes he has much to learn from other practicing architects, and it puts him in an awkward position when he goes to a new course, because no one will let him just play and not tell them what he thinks.


Tom Doak,

That creates an interesting question, or dilema.

Is there a threshold point, beyond which one's creativity will be compromised by exposure to other golf courses ?

Or, is the concept of continually adding to one's data base a stimulant for the creative process ?
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