Trent Jones Jr. on Global Warming

« **on:** January 24, 2007, 12:51:12 PM »

I was just listening to an interview with Robert Trent Jones Jr. from Davos on the impact of global warming on the game. He was quite adamant that it was having a significant effect, citing items such as average soil temperature and the lengthening playing season in the Northern Hemisphere. He also said that the center of gravity for new course development was shifting North, with many new courses being constructed in Norway and Sweden among other Northern locales.

Unfortunately I can't link to the text of the interview.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2007, 01:35:57 PM »

Phil,

I know he is working there, so it may tinge his views a bit as to where courses are being built.

Other things that might affect his comments (and I say this as at least a casual friend of his)

He is a raging liberal, with all attendant views. Al Gore may be his hero.

He provides a bit of hot air every time he speaks, so it may be a very localized warming trend!

« **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »

I do not understand why believing in global warming is a "liberal" notion. The warming of the earth's temperature appears to be very close to a scientific fact. The cause and effects of this warming are more of the disputable item. However, the debate about the cause and effect can be politically neutral or very political. It is the decisions we make as humans that are the political element of this issue. In this final instance I use the term political in its purest form.

Decisions will need to be made (including the possible conclusion to do nothing), based on the give and take between different peoples' priorities, culture, and principles. The facts and theories of science can only add to that process. One just hopes that science is not ignored or distorted.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2007, 03:52:30 PM »

There was already a massive thread on this a few weeks ago.

I'm praying it doesn't turn into that again!!

« **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2007, 03:57:46 PM »

From 1945-1975 there was actually global cooling, which started some scientists to predict a new ice age was coming.

How much global warming is caused by man and how much is normal is up for debate. Sometimes human beings give themselves too much credit.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2007, 04:19:43 PM »

Bill,

While global warming isn't necessarily a political issue, it tends to be, with liberals believing it and conservatives (generally) skeptical at least.

I think thats common enough knowledge for me to make the joke at the expense of my very political friend. What kind of jokes could we make by ignoring all stereotypes, regardless of their veracity?

As you can tell, given the short term evidence being considered (IMHO) compared to long term trends, I am at best a skeptic on the scientific validity of the argument. I fully expect another ice age by virtue of the tilt of the earths axis as before.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2007, 04:40:54 PM »

Heres the thread to see where GCA'ers stand on this one, have a fun read!!!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27427;start=0

« **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:11:29 PM »

At some point, the sun will turn into an unfathomably hot giant supernova and explode. Not only will life on earth be extinguished, but the entire solar system will be turned into microscopic particulate matter.

I'm hoping to still be around for that, if only for one very brief, very intense shining moment.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:33:45 PM »

Mike, there's a far better chance of you being around for the following:

I was watching a PBS show on supervolcanos a few weeks ago. Turns out there's one under Yellowstone. It's on a 600,000 year cycle, and it's been 640,000 years since it last blew.

We're all living on borrowed time.

My suggested solution: don't work, just post.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:40:33 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on January 24, 2007, 05:11:29 PM

At some point, the sun will turn into an unfathomably hot giant supernova and explode. Not only will life on earth be extinguished, but the entire solar system will be turned into microscopic particulate matter.

maybe THAT would stop those Merion threads.....

« **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:43:04 PM »

Quote from: Paul Thomas on January 24, 2007, 05:40:33 PM

Quote from: MPCirba on January 24, 2007, 05:11:29 PM
At some point, the sun will turn into an unfathomably hot giant supernova and explode. Not only will life on earth be extinguished, but the entire solar system will be turned into microscopic particulate matter.

maybe THAT would stop those Merion threads.....

Know what's at the center of the universe? Me either, but chances are good that one or more posters from the Merion thread are there......

Joe

« **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:44:35 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on January 24, 2007, 05:33:45 PM

We're all living on borrowed time.

My suggested solution: don't work, just post.

George,

Yes, it's becoming my motto, although I have to believe there are better alternatives.

Paul,

It's likely those Merion threads will be the only thing continuing at that point. They've obviously taken on a life of their own, and by the grandiose pronouncements of the participants (self included), they must be immortal as well..

Joe,

Touche'

« **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:57:02 PM »

Global Warming as a scientific fact is pure speculation, therefore it is NOT viable as a fact. It's been very cold throughout the Western part of the US as of late, and temperatures are around normal in the Northeast where I am. Of course, liberals will point to this as proof of global warming because it's really "global climate change." Shows you how credible the global warming is when you claim cold weather proves a trend of warming.

So what effect will warming have on golf courses? Probably nothing. I will say, I was thrilled to play golf on both Christmas Day and New Year's Day, but I am certainly not playing any golf now.

The only reason this has become a political issue is because of the President's stance against the "fact" of global warming. If the President said there was global warming, most liberals would dismiss it as a flawed theory, a scam. Politics as usual.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2007, 06:27:18 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on January 24, 2007, 05:44:35 PM

Paul,

It's likely those Merion threads will be the only thing continuing at that point. They've obviously taken on a life of their own, and by the grandiose pronouncements of the participants (self included), they must be immortal as well..

Quote

I'm starting to think those Merion threads are alien life forces Mike!

« **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2007, 06:34:41 PM »

JNC,

Perhaps you missed that Bush has started to turn the ship on global warming. He even mentioned it last night in the State of the Union.

From the SOTU:

Quote

America is on the verge of technological breakthroughs that will enable us to live our lives less dependent on oil. These technologies will help us become better stewards of the environment — and they will help us to confront the serious challenge of global climate change.

The Pentagon produced a report on the potentially disasterous effects of global warming.

Also, when you have companies like GE, Dupont, BP, Alcoa and Florida Power and Light calling for changes you have to wonder if the tide has turned.

Ask yourself the following questions:

If you're right and global warming is not for real, what harm is done in cutting back on CO2 emissions, by developing new technologies that make America less dependent on oil and in cleaning up the environment in general?

If you're wrong and global warming is real, what harm is done by ignoring it? Could the loss of important coastlines like those in Scotland, Ireland, Long Island, Florida, California and Oregon be a big deal? Could a huge temperature drop in Britain and Europe do to the possible elimination of the Gulf Stream have any effect on my life? Could the warming of the Northeast wreck havoc on the bent grass greens that we all love here? Will Oak Hill have to switch to bermuda?

Which is worse? Personally, I'd opt for doing something instead of sitting on my hands saying that there is nothing wrong.

As for temperature changes in the Western US and the Northeast this winter, any scientist can tell you that localized patterns do not make climate change. The Northeast has been warmer than usual, not around normal. I played golf every week in December and into the new year, which I've not done in the four previous years I've been here. Pittsburgh has had 1/4 the snowfall it usually has to this point even though precipitation is above normal.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2007, 06:41:46 PM »

Quote from: John Vander Borght on January 24, 2007, 06:34:41 PM

JNC,

Perhaps you missed that Bush has started to turn the ship on global warming. He even mentioned it last night in the State of the Union.

From the SOTU:
Quote
America is on the verge of technological breakthroughs that will enable us to live our lives less dependent on oil. These technologies will help us become better stewards of the environment — and they will help us to confront the serious challenge of global climate change.

The Pentagon produced a report on the potentially disasterous effects of global warming.

Also, when you have companies like GE, Dupont, BP, Alcoa and Florida Power and Light calling for changes you have to wonder if the tide has turned.

I'm not a liberal and I'm not buying much of anything that Mr. Bush is saying these days. Look no further than his bright idea for how to fix the Iraq mess..."send more troops"...what???

So I wouldn't be looking to George to be an authority on "Global Climate Change" either. Its nothing more than what JNC stated...politics as usual.

As to the larger companies, by paying lip service to improving "global warming" they can gain a lot of good PR points and hopefully head off future run ins with groups/organizations that may potentially bring them bad press.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2007, 07:38:33 PM »

I am deeply offended by this thread, and hope it will be deleted.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2007, 07:43:23 PM »

Quote from: George Pazin on January 24, 2007, 05:33:45 PM

Mike, there's a far better chance of you being around for the following:

I was watching a PBS show on supervolcanos a few weeks ago. Turns out there's one under Yellowstone. It's on a 600,000 year cycle, and it's been 640,000 years since it last blew.

We're all living on borrowed time.

My suggested solution: don't work, just post.

I also read and have watched a few shows on super volcanoes. Kind of makes me not want to live in the Mountain West anymore. But I guess that front row seat will be spectacular.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2007, 08:07:07 PM »

Maybe the leading voice on climate change in America is a NASA scientist named Jim Hansen, who's also an avid golfer -- I think he was even a GOLFWEEK panelist at one time, though he is probably too busy now attending congressional hearings. I played with him at Crystal Downs a few years back.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2007, 08:15:54 PM »

Quote from: John Kirk on January 24, 2007, 07:38:33 PM

I am deeply offended by this thread, and hope it will be deleted.

I am so curious: Why does it offend? I can understand being dismissive or bored or exasperated (all depending on one's perspective.) But "offended?"

Trent Jones Jr. was speaking (and it would be nice to listen or to hear his exact words) specifically about global climate change and its impact on golf courses so it seems quite in line with the purposes of this terrific (if I may say so) group. No?

Just so there is no doubt about my own views:
• There is no doubt that the global climate is changing.
• And there is dramatically decreasing doubt that it is caused by human activity.
• But that still leaves a lot of room for reasonable people to disagree about what exactly to do.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2007, 09:21:53 PM »

Quote from: John Kirk on January 24, 2007, 07:38:33 PM

I am deeply offended by this thread, and hope it will be deleted.

John,

You offend easily.

The interview was about the impact of warming on golf course development and maintenance - seems topical to me for this site. Unfortunately it was on Bloomberg TV and I can't provide the text, which admittedly limits the scope of the discussion.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2007, 09:36:24 PM »

John Kirk,

I think some of the silly humor on this thread, mine included, come from feelings of powerlessness and confusion.

If indeed Global Warming is happening, and is caused by human activity, what the hell are we supposed to do as individuals? Am I supposed to drive my Prius while getting run over by a Hummer? When the methane gas from dairy cattle and the CO2 emissions from volcanic eruptions spew as much pollutants into the air as 50 environmentally dirty Russia's and Belarussa's, how do the feeble efforts by each of us make much of a difference, no matter how well-intentioned?

What you're hearing here is some of the same type of gallows humor that created movies like Dr. Strangelove during the Nuclear cold war, fueled by people's combination of fear and seemingly minute ability to do a damn thing about it.

Those who deny global climate change often rail against the funding of those who contend it's very real, yet they are most often in the pockets of the big oil companies and others who profit from the status quo.

The problem is that even if it is real, and I truly believe it is, is there anything any one of us can really do about it to make a significant difference?

If someone has some great ideas, now would probably be a good time to speak up.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2007, 09:38:25 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on January 24, 2007, 09:36:24 PM

John Kirk,

I think some of the silly humor on this thread, mine included, come from feelings of powerlessness and confusion.

If indeed Global Warming is happening, and is caused by human activity, what the hell are we supposed to do as individuals? Am I supposed to drive my Prius while getting run over by a Hummer? When the methane gas from dairy cattle and the CO2 emissions from volcanic eruptions spew as much pollutants into the air as 50 environmentally dirty Russia's and Belarussa's, how do the feeble efforts by each of us make much of a difference, no matter how well-intentioned?

What you're hearing here is some of the same type of gallows humor that created movies like Dr. Strangelove during the Nuclear cold war, fueled by people's combination of fear and seemingly minute ability to do a damn thing about it.

Those who deny global climate change often rail against the funding of those who contend it's very real, yet they are most often in the pockets of the big oil companies and others who profit from the status quo.

The problem is that even if it is real, and I truly believe it is, is there anything any one of us can really do about it to make a significant difference?

If someone has some great ideas, now would probably be a good time to speak up.

Never use the handicap accesible automatic door openers for buildings. The energy wasted from the door being opened longer than necessary adds up quickly.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:07:42 PM »

Quote from: MPCirba on January 24, 2007, 09:36:24 PM

John Kirk,

I think some of the silly humor on this thread, mine included, come from feelings of powerlessness and confusion.

If indeed Global Warming is happening, and is caused by human activity, what the hell are we supposed to do as individuals? Am I supposed to drive my Prius while getting run over by a Hummer? When the methane gas from dairy cattle and the CO2 emissions from volcanic eruptions spew as much pollutants into the air as 50 environmentally dirty Russia's and Belarussa's, how do the feeble efforts by each of us make much of a difference, no matter how well-intentioned?

What you're hearing here is some of the same type of gallows humor that created movies like Dr. Strangelove during the Nuclear cold war, fueled by people's combination of fear and seemingly minute ability to do a damn thing about it.

Those who deny global climate change often rail against the funding of those who contend it's very real, yet they are most often in the pockets of the big oil companies and others who profit from the status quo.

The problem is that even if it is real, and I truly believe it is, is there anything any one of us can really do about it to make a significant difference?

If someone has some great ideas, now would probably be a good time to speak up.

You gotta be kidding me? You think we as individuals can't make a difference? If everyone did a little bit it would go a long way.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2007, 01:13:03 AM »

Without venturing deeply into this subject:

Phil and David, I'm not offended at all by the specific example regarding Trent Jones Jr.

Tom, I know who Jim Hansen is. What an honor to have played golf with him. Great scientists are the heroes of the world.

Oil, big business, politics, science, the press, and even religion are all co-stars in the global warming debate. The debate is a microcosm of all that is wrong with modern American politics.

Other than that, I'll remain precariously on the high road. I think it's clear where I stand.

News:

Phil Benedict

Jeff_Brauer

Bill Shamleffer

Kalen Braley

Craig Van Egmond

Jeff_Brauer

Kalen Braley

Mike_Cirba

George Pazin

PThomas

Joe Hancock

Mike_Cirba

JNC Lyon

PThomas

JohnV

Kalen Braley

John Kirk

Ryan Farrow

Tom_Doak

David Sucher

Phil Benedict

Mike_Cirba

Kyle Harris

Matt Kardash

John Kirk