This may be a repeat of a previous thread that I could not find, but pardon my newbie memory if it is.

While looking through Dan Moore's aerial shots I was struck by this one at Acacia.



Does this predate #10 at Riviera?



Is there a template for this style that I've not seen before?

The article in LINKS was great on 10, but it also indicated that it was first built without greenside bunkers.

Anybody know who built that alternate green on Riviera's 10th?

This is not a question---I know the answer. It's a contest and the first one to get the right answer I will treat to a weekend at Augusta.

Is the alt green a TEPaul original? Just hoping brown-nosing might get me the trip!

Tom,

Ron Forse designed the green. I don't know who actually built it though.

I don't see any way the hole at Acacia can be seen as a template for #10 at Riviera.
From what can be seen, it looks like the hole at Acacia is simply a bad hole. However, it is well known that the tenth at Riviera is a great hole.

Jeff, as a "newbie", I think your observation that it might be a template, is quite impressive.  I'd suggest that it might be an "inspiration" concept, but not a template.  

Likewise, the 15th at Dan and Dave's Wild Horse is "inspired" by 10 at Riviera, it is not a template, per se.

The template based on the original on the east coast of England.  I think it would have to be Macdonald's.  

Me too...  

Dan,

Just didn't see it as a template for Riviera. The Redan may be the most famous template. The copies all try to get the approach close to the same. Riviera is famous for easy approach from the long side, hard approach from the short side. Acacia certainly didn't have that, and it appears Sahara doesn't. I can see that Riviera would be a refinement of the Sahara concept. Also, the Sahara shown does not seem to invite the shot across the "desert" like Riviera does.

Dan,

First understand that I have not played these holes, so my understanding comes only from the pictures, except for Riviera about which much has been written.

As for Acacia, the line of instinct is also the line of charm for the hitter who can carry the bunker. For the golfer that can not carry the bunker, there is no line of charm, as the route around it on the left to give a bad angle of approach is not charming in the least. Alister would not approve!
 

Dan,

Ive played them both and they're nothing alike. I simply don't get your suggestion on this one.

Dan, what Langford holes can you I.D., that are sahara-like.  I haven't played so many Langford's courses as you.  At Lawsonia, the only configuration that comes to mind is #8.  But, with the typical raised plateau-like Langford green, even a very big hitter won't likely get it to roll up onto the green platform at the end of the roll-out of a huge drive.  I only got to about 80yards once on a great line, and had a shot up and into the green from the front left, not having to cross the fronting bunker front right.  Usually, I hit a little half driver or 3W out to the left rather than challenge the gull winged (saharalike) bunker and rough up right side.  There is plenty of room out left.

Jeff,

At the risk of digging myself into a deeper hole I offer these quotes.

"The principal of the hole is to give the player on the tee a number of alternatives according to his strength and courage.  If he plays for the green and succeeds he has an advantage of at least one stroke over the opponent who takes the shorter carry (...) and probably more than one stroke over the player who avoids the carry altogether.  But if he fails he is bunkered and may take five or six and lose to the short player who goes around."  

"The (...th) is not complicated: Lay up down the (...) side and leave a short pitch to (the) green. Knowing this, players still cave to temptation and play straight at the green either intentionally or via some subconscious refusal to lay up (...). The aggressive route to the hole rarely leads to eagles, or even birdies, and almost always causes round-deflating pars and bogeys."

The terrain, style and nature of the hazards, and size and shape of greens may be different, but I still see the fundamental strategic concept of these holes as essentially the same.  Take the risky route over a cross bunker which must be carried in order to attack the green from the tee or lay up off to the side of the primary hazard to set up a short safe second.  

Rivieria is 315 yds today, Acacia was 280 yds in 1924 and NGLA was an uphill 262 yds in 1920.  

Doubtful that Thomas invented the driveable, highly strategic, short par 4, but he did perfect one version of it.  As Macdonald wrote of his Sahara at NGLA, it was based on  "the basic principle of all the best full drive holes."  

I am pretty sure Langford was familiar with the work of his fellow former Chicagoan Macdonald.  And he was after all in graduate school at Columbia Univ. in NY during the genesis of NGLA.  

Is that second green in the aerial of #10 at Riviera an actual alternate green for member play?  It's not used in the Nissan Open, is it?

I'm very surprised that #10 at Riviera isn't replicated more often in the modern day.  It would be a cinch to copy, seeing how it looks like a rare great hole on which terrain matters very little (I undderstand it's essentially a flat hole).