Real Links Golf is on Fescue's.

« **on:** January 23, 2007, 10:07:16 AM »

I got to thinking the other day,if a course is build in Links style but does not have Fescue fairways is it really a Links course.
When you go play the great Links courses of Europe they have a certain feel under the foot,a certain smell in the air that comes from the cooler climate conditions even in Summer.A links course has firm fast fairways that you can not replicate on Bermuda grass.From what I can find out Barnbougle Dunes has Fescue fairways but for instance Barwon Heads does not.
Does this mean courses build in the sandy dunes of the caribbean and such places are not really Links courses.

When you play Links type courses with Bermuda fairways it doesn't feel the same to me.

What does everybody think

« **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2007, 10:30:04 AM »

Andrew,

I'm one of those people that believe if a course is not located inside a dunesline - on linksland - and near the mouth of an ancient river that it is not a links course, rather a links-style or seaside golf course. For instance, I do not believe the courses of Bandon to be links, but seaside layouts, as do most of the head greenkeepers of links courses in the UK that I have talked with.

On true links courses there a variety of grasses including upright bents, a bit of poa and probably some hybrid dunes grass that adapted to the gradual lowering of the the height of cut by sheep and mowers over the years.

Anthony

« **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2007, 10:55:27 AM »

Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on January 23, 2007, 10:30:04 AM

Andrew,

I'm one of those people that believe if a course is not located inside a dunesline - on linksland - and near the mouth of an ancient river that it is not a links course, rather a links-style or seaside golf course. For instance, I do not believe the courses of Bandon to be links, but seaside layouts, as do most of the head greenkeepers of links courses in the UK that I have talked with.

On true links courses there a variety of grasses including upright bents, a bit of poa and probably some hybrid dunes grass that adapted to the gradual lowering of the the height of cut by sheep and mowers over the years.

Anthony

Other than the "dunesline/linksland" concept, which strikes me as very, very hard to define, I'm curious as to what you see as the major difference(s) between Bandon and links golf. Certainly the climate (marine west coast) is the same, and relatively sandy soil.

I understand the "seaside" designation, say for the Ocean Course, which is in a completely different climate that won't allow the same grasses, etc.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:20:12 AM »

Andrew,
Keeping your definition of Links golf limited, is IMO, not fair. I've seen Bermuda fairways maintained to such a level that allows for the ground game. Throw in the elements of nature, on a canvas that dolls out unpredictability (firm) and you can feel like you are playing TOC. Can't you?

« **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:51:28 AM »

It is difficult to classify courses as "links" by grass anymore. Through the years new grasses have been introduced into some classic old links courses. On the other hand, there are some newer courses, like Waterville, that are on what I would call linksland that do not play like a true links course because of the grass.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2007, 03:36:01 PM »

Andrew:

I agree with you that a true links course requires a certain kind of playing surface. Fescue certainly gives that playing surface but other grasses possibly can, if conditions are right. [Then again, Adam, have you ever played a bermudagrass course which you would honestly call a "links"? I haven't.]

I just got finished writing a piece about links golf for T & L Golf and I must say that I find the strictest definition of links (like Tony's) a bit wanting nowadays. To me the courses at Gullane are links because their sandy nature derives from the mouth of the inlet to the west ... and if that's so, then you have to allow Bandon Dunes in as a links, too, because the sand has blown up and formed into dunes on top of the cliffs, and it certainly has the playing surface of a links. Bandon is much different than Pebble Beach in that regard. That's a lot easier call than Sand Hills or Ballyneal, which play like links but are nowhere near the ocean.

I guess it doesn't matter too much either way to me ... nobody can disqualify Barnbougle.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2007, 07:57:17 PM »

Tom, Talking Stick North is the course I was referring to with the pristine Bermuda mat. I wouldn't call it Links, either, but it did have a lack of shot dictation. Allowing me to choose lower trajectory shots, be creative and the result was fun. Just like "links style" implies.

« **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:45:26 PM »

I'm an unapologetic purist. To quote a recent ad, "A sparkling wine may look or claim the part. But if it's not from Champagne, it's simple not true Champagne.

"That's because Champagne is a specific place 90 miles east of Paris that produces grapes that yield the taste of the Champagne legend. Champagne's one of kind cool climate, chalky soil and long history of winemaking expertise combine to produce a wine impossible to duplicate."

Pacific Dunes is a fantastic seaside golf course. The New Course is a links golf course. I have no problem with anyone telling me they like Pacific better than the New, just don't try and tell me Pacific is a links golf course. It's like trying to convince me a sparkling wine from California is champagne.

Anthony

« **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2007, 06:57:25 AM »

Tony:

How about Gullane, Pennard, Porthcawl, or Lytham?

If those aren't links then neither is Bandon Dunes. But if they are -- and many British golfers would say they are -- then does your "strict definition" only apply outside the UK?

« **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2007, 07:04:07 AM »

Porthcawl and Lytham are most definitely links.

The beach is not that far from the course, if not for houses and the main road to Blackpool then there would still be duneland between the course and sea.

Porthcawl is also links, if I remember correctly does it not play out alongside the beach on the first three holes? How much closer do you want it to be Sean...in the sea?

« **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2007, 07:11:00 AM »

Tom - Tommy Williamsen's comments re Waterville bring to mind my experience at Barnbougle. While I loved the course, the one disappointment was that the fairways were too furry, and that affected how it played, slightly diminishing the links features. Maybe it was just because I was there between Xmas and New Year and a well deserved break was being taken!

« **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2007, 08:14:49 AM »

Philip:

I don't know whether it was a year ago or two years ago you were there ... two years ago it was still very new and very tender. One of my associates played over the Christmas holiday this year and reported that it was very firm and fast, not fuzzy at all.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2007, 08:32:38 AM »

Is there a limit where Fescue can be used.Barnbougle Dunes is at 41'South.
At what latitude would you consider using a different type of grass.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2007, 10:41:35 AM »

I think you can sub devide the definition until each course has its own catagory. Links to me is sandy soil, close to the coast (Lytham counts) and a running style game.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2007, 09:16:23 PM »

Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on January 23, 2007, 10:30:04 AM

I'm one of those people that believe if a course is not located inside a dunesline - on linksland - and near the mouth of an ancient river that it is not a links course, rather a links-style or seaside golf course.

Tony-
Curious as to what the Coquille river is to you? Last time I checked it was a river. I agree with your statement, but disagree with your application. The important thing is how the elements affected the property during its creation. Ballyneal and the Sand Hills are also on linksland, very ancient linksland.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:44:20 PM »

.........and continuing Joe's thought, there is discussion in this region that Cut Creek, the creek that runs through the middle of Bandon Dunes Golf Resort, from forest to sea, was in "ancient" times, the location of the Coquille River. When that is considered, along with the knowledge that the headland that carries the Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes courses is rising in elevation, then it certainly conforms to Anthony's requirements of true and traditional links.

Certainly the firm and fast is here, each day of this winter season, the river mouth is here, the dunal nature of the land is here.

Even the now forested main ridge that runs north and south through the resort is simply a huge and ancient sand dune.

Tom

« **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2007, 12:26:37 AM »

Not, to hijack this thread, and slightly OT, but simply to keep the record straight, the geologic feature we know as the Nebraska Sand Hills, is NOT ancient linksland in origin; that formation is there as a result of wind-borne depositions of glacially developed and deposited sand. Google GEOLOGY NEBRASKA SAND HILLS for any number of informational sites.

Regards,
Tom

« **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:00:24 AM »

Andrew:

We thought about using fescue at St. Andrews Beach (after all it is just the other side of the Bass Strait from Barnbougle), but we went with couch on the fairways and fescue on the approaches. In the first year the fescue was performing very well and we started to wonder why we didn't use it on the fairways, but I suspect that eventually a couple of hot summers will take their toll on it.

It's not just about latitude -- proximity to the ocean has a great cooling effect, and it's the soils and maritime climate that determine where fescue thrives.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:04:49 AM »

Defining "links golf" is like defining "pornography." As Judge Potter Stewart said about the latter, in effect: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

Fescues are just one of the many grasses on links courses. Rivers may or may not be nearby. Dunes may or may not be present.

I my experience, there are some courses outside Europe that play a bit like links (e.g. Prairie Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Shinnecock Hills), but none of them are the real deal.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:15:02 AM »

Linksland is by the sea. It is sand based and should be in or by dunes. End of story. Courses like Ganton may play like a links but Ganton is not a links course, even if the land it is on once was linksland but is no longer. Porthcawl, Lytham and Gullane are.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2007, 08:35:26 AM »

Mark:

I agree with you on all of those, I don't think many would argue that Ganton is a links even if the turf and conditions are similar.

We are, however, still arguing about Bandon Dunes. It is "sand based" and "by the sea", it's fescue, and there are dune formations, but because the elevation is 100 feet above sea level and the dunes formed from the wind up there, many want to deny it "links" status. If it were in Britain I think it would be included in the same category as Pennard or Turnberry, which most people call links.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2007, 08:38:36 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 25, 2007, 08:35:26 AM

Mark:

I agree with you on all of those, I don't think many would argue that Ganton is a links even if the turf and conditions are similar.

We are, however, still arguing about Bandon Dunes. It is "sand based" and "by the sea", it's fescue, and there are dune formations, but because the elevation is 100 feet above sea level and the dunes formed from the wind up there, many want to deny it "links" status. If it were in Britain I think it would be included in the same category as Pennard or Turnberry, which most people call links.

Tom,

I've never been to Bandon. One day, perhaps.....

If it has dunes then I'd be happy to call it a links. There are plenty of cliff top golf courses that aren't links but being on top of a cliff does not preclude a course from being a links (all IMHO).

« **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:28:51 PM »

Tom,

I just checked Wikipedia and it said the courses at Bandon Resort are links so that settles that arguement.

In all seriousness though, I think given the fact that Bandon and Pacific meet all the requirements, fescue, sandy soil, dunes, etc., it should only be a small matter that its 100 feet or so above sea level. The courses for sure fit the spirit of the definition, and thats the most important component to me.

And for those that disagree, a plank shall be installed to the west of the 13th green for them to walk!

« **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:34:40 PM »

Kalen:

I've always dodged the question of whether or not Bandon is a true links because I know some people will insist it isn't, and accuse me of bias. I prefer to just pick apart their case that it's not a links. But it really doesn't matter how you classify it, it is what it is.

Besides, if global warming turns out to be as dire as predicted, it won't be too many years before Pacific Dunes is close to sea level and most of Tony's "true links" are underwater.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2007, 07:42:21 PM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 25, 2007, 07:34:40 PM

Kalen:

I've always dodged the question of whether or not Bandon is a true links because I know some people will insist it isn't, and accuse me of bias. I prefer to just pick apart their case that it's not a links. But it really doesn't matter how you classify it, it is what it is.

Besides, if global warming turns out to be as dire as predicted, it won't be too many years before Pacific Dunes is close to sea level and most of Tony's "true links" are underwater.

lol....good one.

Mike Keiser was forward thinking on that one as well when he finally decided on that bit of land

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