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wsmorrison

A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« on: January 12, 2007, 07:15:58 PM »
Inspired by Ian Andrew's thread on the list of Stanley Thompson courses, I thought I would present a list of the golf course designs (d), redesigns (r), constructions (c) and agronomics (a) by William S. Flynn


1.   Atlantic City Country Club (CC of Atlantic City):  1923 d27  (Blue nine NLE)
2.   Bala Golf Club:  1922 (A34) d9 r9
3.   Beaver Dam Golf Club:  1927 AKA Prince Georges Country Club  (NLE)
4.   Boca Raton Resort Club-North Course:  1929 (158) (NLE)  
5.   Boca Raton Resort Club-South Course:  1929 (157) (NLE)
6.   Brinton Lake Club:  1923 (114) AKA Concord Country Club
7.   Cascades Golf Club:  1923-1935 (119)
8.   Cherry Hills Country Club:  1923
9.   Cleveland Heights Golf and Country Club:  1925
10.   The Country Club-Pepper Pike:  1930 (154)
11.   Country Club of Harrisburg:  1917
12.   Country Club of Virginia-James River Course:  1928
13.   Doylestown Country Club:  1916 d9
14.   Eagles Mere Country Club:  1917 d12 r6
15.   Eagles Mere Country Club:  1924 (127)
16.   East Potomac Public Golf Club
17.   Elyria Country Club:  1925
18.   Floranada South:  1926 (NLE) (143)
19.   Glen View Club:  1922 (109)
20.   Heartwellville Country Club (Kilcare GC):  1911 (NLE)
21.   Huntingdon Valley Country Club:  1927 d27
22.   Indian Creek Country Club:  1930 (155)
23.   Indian Spring: 1945 (NLE)
24.   The Kittansett Club:  1923
25.   Lancaster Country Club:  1920
26.   Lehigh Country Club:  1928
27.   Manor Country Club:  1927
28.   Manufacturers Golf and Country Club:  1925
29.   Marble Hall (AKA Green Valley):  1924 (125, A46)
30.   McCall Field (Philadelphia Electric):  1923
31.   Merion Golf Club West Course:  1913 (co-design under H. Wilson)
32.   Mill Road Farm:  1926 (NLE)
33.   Monroe Country Club:  1922 d9 (107)
34.   Normandy Shores Golf Club:  1936(172)
35.   Opa Locka:  1926 (NLE)
36.   Pepper Pike Club:  1924 (113)
37.   Philadelphia Country Club:  1927 (132)
38.   Pine Meadow Golf Course:  1926
39.   Plymouth Country Club (PA):  1925
40.   Plymouth Country Club (NC):  1937 d9
41.   Pocantico Hills Golf Club:  1937 (169)
42.   Pocono Manor:  1920 d10
43.   Rock Creek Park Golf Club:  1923/1927
44.   Rolling Green Golf Club:  1926
45.   Seaview Country Club (Pines):  1931 d9
46.   Sewell’s Point (Norfolk CC):  1924  
47.   Shinnecock Hills Golf Club:  1931 (156)
48.   Springdale Golf Club:  1928
49.   Town and Country (AKA Woodmont):  1921 (NLE)  
50.   The US Naval Academy Golf Club:  1944 d9 r9
51.   Woodcrest Country Club:  1930
52.   Yorktown Country Club-Riverview Course:  1923 (NLE)


Golf Courses Redesigned By William S. Flynn

1.   The Burning Tree Club
2.   Columbia Country Club:  1921, 1923
3.   The Country Club—Brookline:  1927 (148) d11 r16
4.   The Creek Club:  1927
5.   Denver Country Club:  1923
6.   Friendship Golf Club:  192-
7.   Women's National (Glen Head CC):  1926-1927
8.   Gulph Mills Golf Club:  1932 a17
9.   The Old Course, Homestead Resort:  1925 (141)
10.   Merion Golf Club-East Course:  1912-1943
11.   North Hills CC:  1922
12.   Philadelphia Cricket Club:  1928 r9
13.   Philmont Country Club (North Course) unknown, possibly nothing
14.   Pine Valley Golf Club:  1918, 1921, 1929 c,a
15.   Springhaven Club:  1929 (I 10) d9r9
16.   Sunnehanna Country Club:  1937 (173)
17.   Sunnybrook Golf Club  (NLE/Flourtown CC)
18.   The Tuxedo Club:  unconfirmed
19.   Washington Golf and Country Club:  1917 a; 1919-1922 r
20.   Westchester Country Club (South and West)  
21.   Whitemarsh Valley Country Club

Golf Courses Constructed by H. C. Toomey and W. S. Flynn
   
1.   The Burning Tree Club:  1924
2.   Westchester-Biltmore:  1920-1922

Golf Courses Designed by William S. Flynn (not constructed)

1.   Country Club of York:  1925 (138)
2.   Miami Beach Polo Club:  1931 (167)
3.   Ritz Carlton North:  1925 (133)
4.   Ritz Carlton South:  1925 (132)
5.   Private course for Robert Cassatt:  1929 (162)
6.   Private course for J.F. Manne:  1929 (160)
7.   Private course for Dr. G. Woodard:  1930 (166)
8.   Yorktown Country Club, Lakeview Course:  1923
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 07:34:57 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil McDade

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 07:22:29 PM »
Wayne:

Welcome back.

Curious about two -- Eagles Mere and Elyria. At times, I lived near both of them, but never played.


JESII

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2007, 07:25:41 PM »
Interesting stuff Wayne.

You shown me this list in the past but I forget how prolific he really was.

Interesting to me is the three non-constructed "private courses". I was under the impression he built a "private course" on the Rockefeller estate but I forget the name. Is that so? To what could you attribute the fact that he designed at least four "private courses"? I ask that assuming four is a high number considering the category. If that is a bad assumption just tell me I'm a dope.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2007, 08:11:52 PM »
Wayne

What brought about the Philmont listing as redesigned by Flynn? Are you accepting the club's version hypothesized by Labbance in the recently published club history that Flynn probably finished the work that Park started?

Steve
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 07:41:55 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2007, 09:02:29 PM »
Thanks, Phil.  I never went anywhere, I just refuse to acknowledge anything and everything to do with Professor Moriarty.  His obsessions are not worth getting mired in.

Flynn added 12 holes and redesigned 6 holes for the original Eagles Mere course.  Eagles Mere was/is a popular retreat for Philadelphia families and the EMCC is a wonderful club.  Later on, Flynn designed the new course for EMCC on some very wild land.  There were some very large ascents on some holes and descents on others...nearly 200 feet as I recall on single holes!  The course was fully cleared and only half finished when the club halted the work.  A hike through bramble and bush leads you to the features designed and built.  It is golf archaeology and a bit of fun to locate the lost features.

Elyria is a somewhat altered Flynn in Cleveland along with the more well known and underappreciated Country Club and Pepper Pike Club.

Jim,

He's more prolific than we think, but a good number of courses no longer exist and it is a small number relative to most other architects of his era.  Flynn, like Coore and Crenshaw and a select few others of this era decided early on that they would stick with a few courses at a given time and devote a lot of on-site attention to them all.

Flynn actually designed 5 private estate courses.  Two that were completed were very important designs.  The reversible course for the Rockefeller family still exists today with its 11 greens (including one double green) that meanders through the greatest estate in America, Pocantico Hills.  Albert Lasker's Mill Road Farm course was one of the toughest courses built in that era.  It was long (7000 yards in 1926) and played at various times as a par 70, 71 and 72.  The course no longer exists.  Cassatt's innovative course may have been built but there is no proof.  Cassatt was the nephew of painter Mary Cassatt and President of the Pennsylvania Railroad.  There were 3 greens with multiple tees that played as 9 holes.  The Manne course was a little chip and putt course.  There is no proof that Woodward's course was built on his estate.  He developed one of the first suburbs in America at Chestnut Hill outside of Philadelphia.

Steve,

I do not believe that Flynn designed Philmont North and think he may have done some redesign work at most and likely did some construction work at the very least.  Who knows?  There is absolutely no archival evidence of Flynn doing anything at Philmont.  It is a guess only because of the oral tradition.  I would definitely give Reid credit for the original design of the South and Park, Jr. credit for the North.  Given that Flynn isn't mentioned in any account of the club nor newspaper or other information, there is nothing that leads me to consider Philmont as Flynn.  He's on the list because of the oral tradition and there is something about some of the holes in the northwest portion of the property that MIGHT indicate Flynn had a small hand in what is there today.  If pressed, I would remove Philmont from all the lists and maybe that's what I will do for the book.

Andy Hughes

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2007, 09:11:03 PM »
Wayne, if I played Rock Creek Park and East Potomac on one of my rare rounds, would I even be able to tell one of the greats did them at this point? Not concerned about conditioning (which I would have to assume would be deplorable) but the layouts themselves.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Bill Gayne

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 09:12:17 PM »
You don't suppose "Professor Moriarity" has served as an independent consultant/historian for Sewell's Point?

Glenn Spencer

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 10:10:50 PM »
Thanks, Wayne!!!! I always thought that TCC was my only Flynn, but I played Elyria a billion years ago. That makes 2 for me.

TEPaul

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 10:12:28 PM »
"Wayne, if I played Rock Creek Park and East Potomac on one of my rare rounds, would I even be able to tell one of the greats did them at this point? Not concerned about conditioning (which I would have to assume would be deplorable) but the layouts themselves."

Andy:

You'd definitely have to be pretty good at this stuff. The thing this website really does need a reality check on is that these so-called "greats" if they never spent much time or effort on particular courses under their name there generally wasn't much about them to write home about. This is probably one of the most unrecognized realities generally or even on this website about some of the courses in the career inventory of Donald Ross.

Some on here tend to think if even a great architect didn't try to hit a homerun on every course he did there must've been something wrong with his talent or whatever. Unfortunately that just isn't the reality and it's a total misunderstanding of the times to boot!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 10:15:17 PM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 11:13:29 PM »
Wayne

I questioned the inclusion of Philmont North on the list in light of your prior statements. To see it on the list today seemed to indicate a change of your position. Apparently not. Have you seen the Labbance Philmont book yet?

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2007, 11:13:55 PM »
Wayne, if I played Rock Creek Park and East Potomac on one of my rare rounds, would I even be able to tell one of the greats did them at this point? Not concerned about conditioning (which I would have to assume would be deplorable) but the layouts themselves.


Andy;

  We (Wayne, Tom Paul, Craig Disher and I) visited Rock Creek Park back in the summer of 2004.  I went and played nine holes later that afternoon.  In its state at the time, I found conditioning to be, as you say, deplorable.  
My impression was that it wasn't easy to see the Flynn there unless you knew what to look for.  However, the way certain holes are routed across hills and the certain way the greens are located are unmistakably in the style of Flynn, and they match up with Gordon plans (date unknown).  Holes 1, 2,3, and 17 are examples I remember well, although at the time, I didn't have (and still don't) great experience with Flynn courses.

I also remember that several of the holes were modified from the Gordon plans which we looked at, one hole in particular being reversed entirely--it was a par four or five on the second nine (somewhere in the middle of the nine)

It would be interesting to have another walk through the course, with a more experienced eye several years on.  
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 09:53:26 AM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2007, 07:31:11 AM »
Andy,

We saw glimpses of what may have been vestiges of Flynn at Rock Creek Park.  "Pull ups" around some greens that framed the greens from the fairway, added contour and help with surface drainage may be evidence of Flynn.  Maybe the way some greens were benched into hillsides and routing features, but as Tom Paul said, it is too inexact to say with any certainty.  I know of a number of cases where looks can be deceiving when it comes to attributions.

Doug,

I don't have plans for either Rock Creek or East Potomac.  We do have some Gordon plans for redesign work at Rock Creek, but they are many years after Flynn died and we don't know what was there prior to the plans.

Glenn,

You need to add to your resume of Flynns played.  Now that would be fun work!  Make your way to Philadelphia sometime.

Steve,

I know we properly discuss the complete lack of Flynn material related to Philmont in the very short section on the course.  I suppose I will take Philmont off the list since it is only speculation that he did anything.  I certainly wouldn't want to stake my reputation (what little there is) on Flynn having anything to do with the design of Philmont North with a lack of evidence.  

I have not seen the Philmont history book.  For some reason the club didn't send me one  ;)  If you have one, I'd love to see it someday.

Bill,

If any research is totally bungled, misconstrued or unproven, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Professor Moriarty was involved  ;)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 07:34:29 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2007, 07:36:19 AM »
Wayne - I thought Burning Tree was attributed to Colt/Alison and even a young MacKenzie...

JC

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2007, 07:43:06 AM »
Jonathan,

Alison designed the course and Toomey and Flynn, the construction company that Flynn co-owned and separate from his design company, built the course according to Alison's plans.  This is why it is listed under courses constructed by Toomey and Flynn.

Alison wanted to go into partnership with Flynn in 1922 but Flynn declined believing he could do better on his own.  I think he was proved correct.  In any case, Alison didn't hold it against him as Flynn would go on to build the course for him.  Interestingly, Alison was brought in by Shinnecock Hills to review Flynn's design and planting plans.  Alison thought them excellent and that they could not be improved upon.  He was right!

D_Malley

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2007, 07:44:15 AM »
wayne
I thought nine holes at pocono manor east were designed by ross. i knew flynn was involved but always considered it to be a combo ross/flynn.  

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2007, 07:49:59 AM »
Thanks Wayne.  Did young MacKenzie work for Flynn too?

I need to talk to you about Columbia CC and a related article.  No hurry as it's due in the spring.  You mind emailing me your phone number?

JC

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2007, 07:50:18 AM »
RG,

We have plans for 10 holes that were built as drawn.  A 1939 aerial shows the routing the same as today.  I'm not sure if Flynn redesigned 1 hole and added 9 or if other work was done on the pre-existing Ross design.  If it is typical of Flynn's similar projects, Flynn would have redesigned the existing course and added holes.  We may not have all of Flynn's plans for Pocono Manor since the ones we do have plans for are associated with a residential plan that was never put into effect.

D_Malley

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2007, 07:53:17 AM »
thanks wayne
have you ever been up there?

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2007, 07:55:42 AM »
Jonathan,

Alison never worked for Flynn.  Toomey, an engineer, oversaw construction for the Toomey and Flynn company and for 2 non-Flynn designs.  Most of the foreman work was done by Red Lawrence and William Gordon.  Dick Wilson was head of work crews under the foremen and was never a lead construction guy for Flynn projects.

MacKenzie was 20 years older than Flynn--born in 1870 vs. 1890 for Flynn.

Call me at 610.955.5686 regarding Columbia CC or otherwise.

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2007, 07:57:03 AM »
RG,

No, it is one of only 3 existing Flynn's I haven't yet been to.  I guess there's no excuse.  Maybe I'll go tomorrow, but I was hoping to go see Phoenixville, so I'll save PM for another time.

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2007, 08:00:15 AM »
OK thanks Wayne.  I'm obviously firing blind here.  Let me go back and look some stuff up.  I swear BT claims Mac was on-site during construction...

JC

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2007, 08:01:44 AM »
Jonathan,

I do not pretend to know much about Burning Tree's history.  You may be right.  I have seen the course and their history book.  Not surprisingly for a very private course like that, there is no much available to study.

D_Malley

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2007, 08:07:54 AM »
PM
is really a course worth seeing, it has some unique stuff going on there.  i noticed on this site about a year ago that M.  Fine was up there looking to do some restoration work, have not heard anything since.  It may be off since they lost out on the slots to "Beautiful Mount Airy Lodge" ;)

LBaker

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 09:12:23 AM »
wayne,

What an impressive list.  Would Flynn get any credit for his imput with the building of Pine Valley?

Lindsey

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2007, 09:30:17 AM »
Lindsey,

An excellent question.  We know that Flynn was brought in to help with the 1918 agronomic failure that devestated the fairways.  There was not enough organic material in the overwhelmingly sandy soil and the turf could not be maintained.  Flynn worked there several days a week for a stretch of several months.

Flynn was a member of Pine Valley and Toomey was on the Executive Board.  Flynn worked under Hugh and Alan Wilson to finish the 12th-15th holes that were cleared but not constructed at the time of Crump's death.  How much intra-hole design work was done by those responsible, I'm not sure.  If anyone would know it is Tom Paul.  He knows more about the design evolution of the course than anyone else.  Probably by a sizeable margin.

If Flynn did not have much to do with the design of the holes, his work at Pine Valley certainly influenced him in a number of ways.  Flynn's use of interrupted fairways, grassing and undulating sandy waste areas is clearly remeniscent of Pine Valley.  The 12th hole may well be an example of or the inspiration for the most recognizable hole type in Flynn's design portfolio.  The dogleg hole with undulating sandy waste between the tee and the visible green with the best route along the outside of the dogleg is found on a number of Flynn courses.

We know for certain that the stabilizing of the hillsides and the bunkering below the 2nd and 18th greens are Flynn.