If Doak, C&C, or others got anything they wanted..

« **on:** January 12, 2007, 11:28:14 AM »

Looking at the pictures of Shadow Creek, I was pretty impressed. Not bad for the middle of the desert!

It just got me thinking though, of what would happen if Doak, or C&C, or Gil Hanse or any of our favorite GCA's got the oppurtunity Fazio got. Fazio brought in everything he wanted and built the site before he built the actual golf course. If a different architect was given that oppurtunity (plus 38 million dollars, the price of SC) what would the course look like?

Would it still end up looking like a natural course like many built today?

If it did appear natural, would it count as a natural course if they built the environment and made the course fit into their own environment? (Is it possible to really build a natural environment?)

How great would the course be?
I can only imagine what these architects, like Doak, could come up with if they could do absolutely anything they wanted. I tend to think the result of something like this would be very cool. If Fazio can do it (I've hardly heard a bad word about Shadow Creek), surely Doak or C&C could do it, plus other architects for the matter.

And, lastly, is it possible that something like this could ever happen?
Or, am I just dreaming?

« **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:34:43 AM »

Jordan, Tom D has already done it at The Rawls Course. There's a pretty good bit of info on the course if you search for it. I'll try to dig up some later.

Also, Bill Coore seemed to imply that a great deal of Talking Stick was created. He said the site was about as flat as a concrete parking lot before they built the courses.

It would be kind of neat to see what others would do.

Someone might even build a giant bunker that looks like the Cowboys logo....

« **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:40:50 AM »

George,

I understand what you are saying, but I mean if a guy like Steve Wynn were to let Doak (or C&C or whoever else you can think of) actually build whatever they wanted for a site, to put a golf course on. This includes the 38 million dollars that he let Fazio spend building SC, and the ability to import any trees, and any plants he wanted to.

Would a project like what is mentioned above turn out similar to what Fazio created?

How would it be different?

« **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:12:41 PM »

Jordan, there are too many errors in your premise to make it valid. Mr. Wynn is co-designer for SC.

As for what I think you are trying to say, free reign given to any architect is rare. There are a few examples with the best being Wolf Point. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewnuzzo2.html

Mr. Doak wasn't constricted very much at Ballyneal, either.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2007, 01:12:26 PM »

Jordan,
What is the point of your question? What is the answer you are looking for?George gave two good examples, and Adam added another. At Ballyneal Tom was the first and only choice, and I was told by a reliable source that Tom's marching orders were to build the best course possible. I can't imagine what else you're looking for.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2007, 01:44:45 PM »

Well, at The Rawls Course we couldn't do just anything we wanted, and we've never had $38 million to spend anywhere, so I don't know what we would do with it.

Jordan, the premise of your question is somewhat flawed, because Steve Wynn had some very specific ideas for what he wanted at Shadow Creek -- some certain types of holes, plus the extent of the landscaping and the creek. So, Shadow Creek may be many things, but it doesn't show what Tom Fazio would do with $38 million, either. I don't think any architect has ever been able to show that.

Most likely, if somebody gave us $38 million to spend, I would be sure to save at least $10 million so we could go build a couple more courses on ideal land.

As for Shadow Creek, when I played it, my only reaction of something I would have done differently was to open up one or two longer vistas across the golf course, especially considering how private it was at that time. But Mr. Wynn liked every hole to be a self-contained view, so that's why it is the way it is.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:11:35 PM »

Quote from: ed_getka on January 12, 2007, 01:12:26 PM

Jordan,
What is the point of your question? What is the answer you are looking for?George gave two good examples, and Adam added another. At Ballyneal Tom was the first and only choice, and I was told by a reliable source that Tom's marching orders were to build the best course possible. I can't imagine what else you're looking for.

Ed,

Your are right.
I was a big dumb for asking the way I did.
Both examples mentioned were very good ones.
Here will be a question that will better understand what I am trying to get at.

Now, if Doak was given the Shadow Creek project, how would he have made the course?
Would it have been better than the course laid out now?
How much different would it be than the existing Shadow CreeK?

« **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:19:15 PM »

How old was Doak when Shadow Creek was built...There is a reason that IM Pei didn't design the Bellagio.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:24:58 PM »

Jordan,
I am not saying you were asking dumb questions. It just seemed to me that your question was answered.

There is no way of knowing what Tom would have done differently as Wynn wouldn't have given free reign.

I think Tom D would have built a better course, but everyone has different tastes. There are people who have seen a lot of great golf courses and they think Shadow Creek is great. It is an opinion.

Again, how it would be different would have been dictated by Wynn, but I think the Rawls course gives you a good idea.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:38:25 PM »

Ed,

Is Shadow Creek as good as the Rawls course?

Unfortunatley, I have not played or seen either so I am simply curious.
I have heard great things about each course.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:50:48 PM »

Jordan,
I am curious too. I haven't seen either of them. I have no desire to see Shadow Creek at $500 so I can only go by the pix I saw in the Shadow Creek book I picked up years ago. I have heard good things about the Rawls course, so I will see that when I make the trip to Apache Stronghold and Black Mesa.
So many courses, so little time.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2007, 06:34:16 PM »

I M Pei couldn't design Doakes clubhouse

« **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2007, 07:35:56 PM »

Quote from: ed_getka on January 12, 2007, 05:50:48 PM

So many courses, so little time.

And so little money to play the courses

I don't think I could ever pay $500 for one round of golf.
Of course, I get minimum wage too...

« **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2007, 08:22:27 PM »

My friend Bruce Bottom [Pro at Dale Hollow, who came from S IN] told me that when Fazio was finished at Victoria National, one of the membership commented: "He was given an unlimited budget ..... and he exceeded it!!"

Anecdotal John K?

Doug

« **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2007, 08:29:05 PM »

Doug-This was originally said about Fazio and Shadow Creek.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2007, 08:46:00 PM »

Billsteele [BS?];

Yes, I actually knew that. But I do not know anyone at Shadow Creek

I think the saying holds better as urban legend, applied to any convenient overstuffed course.

BTW, that is NOT to say VN isn't great .... it is, in fact, quite stunning. I just wanted to jab a bit of a shiv at John.

Doug

« **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:03:30 PM »

The line about "exceeding an unlimited budget" may be even older than I know, but I first heard Pete Dye use it on himself at Austin Country Club, in 1983.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:06:42 PM »

Anyone know what the tab was to complete the new Wynn course on the old DI site? I've not played it but it "looks" expensive. Unrelated, I thought one of the coolest things about SC is Wynn's house right in the center of the property....the only one there! I'll post up a photo soon.

Jordan, your question is an interesting one. Perhaps another one might be that with the architects you mention being very talented and hot properties, would they even consider an offer from a egomaniac like Wynn? In a good economy, I would pass if I had to choose between making history with a great site, or a few extra bucks in the desert.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:14:59 PM »

Tom Doak;

Yes, the word I was searching for is apocryphal. The story is the lesson [and humor], and the details are not relavent.

Doug

« **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:03:03 PM »

Jordan,
Just keep working hard at school and the income will take care of itself. I can readily pay the $500 for Shadow Creek, I just refuse on principle.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:39:11 PM »

Ed,

I can't fathom spending such an amount for a round of golf.
Personally, I have happily paid $90, $80, and once even $250 for a round.
But, $500 is a lot. I consider that as about $27 or so a hole, and so each hole I play is four hours of work. Too much.

I would happily spend $1100 or so on a trip to Bandon, which I have been saving up for for a long time.
But it would kill me to spend $500 on a round of golf.
Even if I had the money, I agree that based on principle I wouldnt do it. The money could be better spent anyways.

Jon,

Is the house on Shadow Creek (or in the middle of)?
And, I agree I would rather make history with a great course.
Yet, I still think it would be interesting to see what result would occur if Doak or C&C were given the oppurtunity Fazio had.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2007, 10:05:03 AM »

If memory serves, the house is not set directly "on" any hole, but in a somewhat open area near the clubhouse & 18. I'll take a photo next week.

If you're in Vegas, you're going to spend money on something. Not an end-all comparison, but Pebble with a booked tee time is near an $1100 round of golf, once you've booked the crappiest room at Spanish Bay, hired a caddie, tipped him, and paid all your taxes & resort fees. This would constitute "low-season" with the 1-night stay minimum. Shadow comes in at $750 including room expense and the same tip for the caddie. They're both great courses, and I don't oppose Pebble on principle, so why should I oppose Shadow?

« **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2007, 10:10:58 AM »

Jordan Wall

Shadow Creek had nothing to do with the architect.

It had everything to do with Steve Wynn.

Initially, you couldn't play Shadow Creek for any price, you had to get approval from Steve Wynn or his designates.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2007, 10:20:55 AM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on January 13, 2007, 10:10:58 AM

Jordan Wall

Shadow Creek had nothing to do with the architect.

It had everything to do with Steve Wynn.

Initially, you couldn't play Shadow Creek for any price, you had to get approval from Steve Wynn or his designates.

Or be a member of the UNLV golf team.....

« **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2007, 10:22:10 AM »

Jon,

I think that might have been subsequent to the original "rules of play"

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