Top 10 Courses that predate 1900

« **on:** January 12, 2007, 09:23:07 AM »

I would like to know the top 10 US courses and top 10 World Courses that predate 1900.

I'm sure that St. Andrews is one of them.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:26:34 AM »

We should add that they still should be in close to their old configurations....

Myopia...Oakhurst?..Newport, but none of the old holes exist anymore...

Musselburgh...(maybe not for much longer)

« **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:51:35 AM »

Chicago Golf Club - though Raynor rerouted.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:22:09 AM »

Quote from: Tom Roewer on January 12, 2007, 09:51:35 AM

Chicago Golf Club - though Raynor rerouted.

Is there is enough of Shinnecock Hills left? Otherwise, worldwide they're all in the UK.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:44:07 AM »

Interesting thought Cary, from Ran's timeline:

A Timeline of Golf Course Architecture

1860

The Old Course at St. Andrews

The reverse Old Course

Richard Chambers and George Morris

Royal Liverpool Golf Club, England

1870

Old Tom Morris

Lundin, Scotland
Royal County Down, Northern Ireland
Machrihanish, Scotland
Elie, The Golf House Club, Scotland
1880

North Berwick (West), Scotland

Royal Aberdeen, Scotland

Royal St. Georges, England

Royal Dornoch

Devereux Emmet

Garden City GC, NY, USA
Harry Hunter

Royal Cinque Ports Golf Club, Kent, England
Herbert Leeds

would be a lot more interesting if you allowed Centenarians...

« **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:44:09 AM »

Maybe Del Monte near Monterey, CA

« **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:37:15 AM »

i think there is only one course in the phila. area that pre dates 1900, and it certainly would not qualify for anyones top 100.

« **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:48:18 AM »

Which course is that, Racetrack George?

« **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:49:26 AM »

come on you do not know

« **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:52:31 AM »

If I did, I wouldn't have asked. But then again, it must be the 9-holes that are left over from the original course at Philadelphia Cricket.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:58:24 AM »

you are right of course. there is another course that comes very close that is still in existance. is there any evidence that tillinghast tinkered with the st. martins course at PCC as his first experience with architecture?

« **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:01:18 PM »

springhaven is 1902 i believe. tillinghast was a member of PCC at that time and i think they made some adjustments to the course in preparation for the US opens which were held there in the early 1900's.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »

Racetrack George,

Tillinghast's first "experience with architecture" was in 1899 ona plot of land that is referred to as the "old Wister farm" and that was turned into a public park.

It was there that he created his first rudimentary golf course (we don't know anything other than that; not the # of holes, types, lengths, etc...) using used tin cans that had contained peas for cups.

His purpose was to make an attempt to teach his fellow Philadelphians how to play the game of golf.

As far as his work at PCC, the only thing we are aware of is the design of the Flourtown Course in 1922/23

« **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:55:58 PM »

Myopia was 9 holes pre-1900. Nothing of the original Newport or Shinnecock is left. Ekwanok is 1900.

Anthony

« **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2007, 06:00:25 PM »

I would think that Royal Worlington & Newmarket would make this list, although Colt worked on it in the 1900s. The other course that pops into my mind would be Maidstone.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:21:21 PM »

phillip

there is some speculation at PCC that he at least had some input into some modifications made to the st. martins course leading up to one of the two us opens held there, i think he played in one or both of those opens, and he was a member of the club at that time. they were in 1907 & 1910. what year was tillinghast born? and did he do any design work that you know of before 1910?

« **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:43:24 PM »

I believe Rockaway Hunting Club on Long Island says they were established in 1878.

Anyone have a date for the course?

« **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:51:02 PM »

What about Fenwick and Shennecossett in coastal Connecticut. I believe that most of the Shennecossett routing (14 holes or so) is as it was 108 years ago, minus a couple hundred bunkers. I don't know what's been done to Fenwick.

Sharon (CT) CC dates to 1895 or so, I heard.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2007, 05:37:19 AM »

George,

As much as I would love to believe that Tilly did earlier work, as far as we can tell, not only was Shawnee his first original design, it was his first actual work.

He began it in 1909 and it opened for play in the spring of 1911. Before then he certainly was keenly interested in learning about and developing ideas related to course design, but he spent most of the years from 1900 to 1909 playing golf as he had visions of himself as being a world-class player when in reality he was a notch below.

His greatest playing achievement, or atleast the one of which he took greatest pride in, was winning the annual medal play tournament of the Golf Association of Philadelphia and being awarded the Silver Cross as the best player of the year in 1899.

Yes, he competed in both championships, and in the 1910 Open finished as the second low amateur with a score of 316 to finish 18 strokes behind the winner in 25th place.

Tilly would later write how he believed that his work designing courses ruined his golf game.

Did he advise PCC during that time? I wouldn't be surprised if he got more than his "two cents" in, but certainly not to the extent that he would be considered in any fashion the architect of the changes. Up until Shawnee he was still just a wannabe designer.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2007, 07:51:57 AM »

philip
thank you for the info. i am a hugh admirer of tillys work. i worked at PCC for several years, and grew to really love the design of that course. i just wish they would continue to dust it off a little more, and would love to see them put back in some of the cross bunkering there.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2007, 07:59:20 AM »

RG,

Have you seen the Flynn drawings for Philadelphia Cricket? He redesigned a number of holes there within 4 years after opening. You would find them fascinating knowing the course as well as you do. The club had them copied. I can show them to you sometime.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2007, 08:04:48 AM »

wayne
i have not seen those drawings, but have heard of there existence. would love to see them sometime.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2007, 08:14:53 AM »

Shennecossett was founded in 1898 as a 4 hole course and expanded to 18 over the next 18 years until the Ross redesign in 1916. Phfizer viagra'd three holes in 1997 and Silva rebuilt across the road. Fun course with some interesting holes.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2007, 08:52:30 AM »

Cary,
Talking old times is nice.
I hope that the following thoughts from Ireland will entertain you .... and you can shop off the list for "top-10s" as you wish.
In Ireland we have had golf since the 1840s but our oldest surviving golf club dates from 1861 .... so they were cutting grass just when they were launching the (British) Open Championship!
We had about 90 golf clubs by 1900 but just 74 of these survive today.
Of course, many of these have moved their courses once or several times and all are changed beyond recognition.
Ireland was a reasonable power in world golf back then as it was into the game early. But, being a small country, we have been submerged for quantity but not for quality in the past century.
The Golfing Annual lists 1750 golf clubs worldwide in 1897 and 2859 golf clubs worldwide by 1903 .... so the game was agrowing fast by then.
1861- Otway
1881- Royal Belfast
1883 - Curragh
1884- Woodenbridge
1885- Dublin (now Royal Dublin)
1886- Tullamore
1888- Cork, Portrush (now Royal Portrush)
1889 - Dooks, Killymoon, Newcastle (now Royal County down)
1890- Ballycastle, Buncrana, Bushfoot, Dungannon, Island, Sutton,
1891- Fortwilliam, Limerick, North West, Portsalon
1892- Athlone, County Louth, Fermoy, Greencastle, Lahinch, Malahide, Roscrea,
1893- Ballybunion, Birr, County Armagh. Foxrock, Killarney, Lurgan, Ormeau, Rosapenna, Warrenpoint
1894- Ballinasloe. Bundoran, County Cavan, County Sligo, Greenisland, Larne, Mullingar, Portmarnock, Portstewart , Tramore
1895 - Abbeyleix , Ballinrobe, Galway. Greystones, Knock,Malone, Massereene
1896- Ardglass, Enniskillen, Greenore, Helen's Bay, Kilkee, Spanish Point, Kilkenny,Mulranny, Naas, Tipperary, Tralee,
1897- Bray, Lucan,
1898 - County Meath, Parknasilla, Youghal
1899- Carlow, Donaghadee, Rathfarnham.

Warmest regards to all from Ireland where the sun is shining, the wind is blowing and the golfers are swinging through January and waiting for the sighting of the "first American of the year!"

Pat Ruddy

« **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2007, 09:13:45 AM »

Quote from: Adam_Messix on January 12, 2007, 06:00:25 PM

I would think that Royal Worlington & Newmarket would make this list, although Colt worked on it in the 1900s. .

Why? Do you think its that good?

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