Shared Bunkers

« **on:** January 11, 2007, 11:07:20 PM »

Having played the re-worked Royal Sydney layout last week, I was interested to see how Ross Watson, on a couple of occasions, had two greens sharing the bunkering on one side.

It was very clear that these were two sided bunkers, with high lips both front & back, but with walk ins at the side. They actually worked quite well & never gave any sense of being confined or claustrophobic.

Here is the 3rd green sharing its right hand side bunkers with the 15th.

The 6th & 9th greens.

What are some of the better examples of greens that share bunkers.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:05:47 AM »

Andrew,

That's an interesting topic, however, my read on it is that it would have to be on older courses as the legal liability on the architect would be extremely onerous.

I know of a few courses with shared fairway bunkers.
Hollywood comes to mind as one.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:43:51 AM »

Patrick,

Royal Sydney is an old course that has been re-worked in the last 3 years. All the greens were re-done.

I know what you are saying regarding liability. The angles are used quite cleverly at Royal Sydney & you would have to be very wayward to hit the other green, but it is still possible.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:57:23 AM »

Andrew
The sharing of these bunkers at Royal Sydney was like this before Ross Watson did his renovation work. There are also bunkers that are shared between the 3nd and 16th holes. My take is that it is not uncommon but more likely on older style courses where the fairways may be closer together. The Old Course is the ultimate model for this idea though.
cheers Neil

« **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:58:23 AM »

Sorry, suffering from thick fingers today....meant between the 2nd and 16th.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2007, 02:25:38 AM »

Quote from: Neil_Crafter on January 12, 2007, 12:57:23 AM

Andrew
The sharing of these bunkers at Royal Sydney was like this before Ross Watson did his renovation work.

Yes, but I don't remember them being anywhere near as severe as Ross has them.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2007, 04:59:36 AM »

It was a humid day at Royal Sydney - temperature in the mid 20's, but very high humidity (it was day 3 of the nearby Ashes Test). Andrew was wearing a plain shirt, and this is only the second hole! They keep a book by the tee for any balls hit left off-course (I saw this at Alwoodley on #18 as well). You can see Andrew's sinster attributes on the #2 tee-shot.

The #2 and #16 par 5's share this fairway bunker complex on their right. The bunkers are clearly visible from both holes, with the trees planted in copses before and after. An effective and efficient design on very expensive land. These are the bunkers referred to by Neil Crafter.

The #3 is a drop shot par 3 of about 180 yards, coming at an angle to the neighbouring #15 green. Astute placement of the tee and alignement of approach shots plus the placement of vegetationn seems to allow this to work safely. Again, the area is clear of trees enabling full view of any golfer in the critical common area. This is a members club of course, not a public access facility.

Andrew had a close inspection of the common bunkers! He did hit a very good bunker shot next to the hole though, and got his par (I 3-jagged for a bogey!).

The course staff were maintaining the bunkers, reducing the sand thrown on the face and relevelling the floor. The bunkers played similarly to Melbourne and Adelaide sandbelt bunkers with a firmness under the ball that is not as common in Sydney generally.

James B

« **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:00:57 AM »

Andrew,

I too feel Ross has made these shared traps more of a feature. I like what hee's done.

There are some wonderful examples of shared fairway bunkering on Royal Melbourne, seperating the 1st East and the 8th West, as well as the 8th West and 9th West.

I thought we would see the same approach to the reworking at 7 and 8 Royaal East, yet the approach seems to have been different.

Greenside, there's a complex betwen the greens shared by holes 8 and 16 at Kingston Heath. There's also a complex between 10 and 14 (another shared green) on The National (Old).

MM

« **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2007, 06:49:17 AM »

James / Andrew,

How good is RS after the refurb, I was there last year and stayed in the clubhouse accomodation for a few days but didn't get to play golf. Last time I played the course was around 3 years ago and it was in very good condition back then. Nice picture of #3 which is a fun par 3.

The club must have spent A$ millions as the old formal dining room has been ripped out and the entrance moved to make the facilities more inclusive as well as the course work. I understand a refurb of the accomodation is also in the pipeline.

Mark

« **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2007, 07:35:44 AM »

There are shared bunkers separating the 4th and 6th fairways at Royal Worlington. It is also quite possible to top a drive at the 3rd into the bunker guarding the 2nd green.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2007, 07:56:11 AM »

Maybe this could have some interest for you, Andrew :there is an interesting old thread concerning shared fairway bunkers : http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6744

Seb

« **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2007, 08:41:54 AM »

I especially liked James' 4th picture where as from the viewers angle the bunkers on the adjacent hole are not shared, but they do APPEAR to be part of the par 3. 'Sharing' from a visual standpoint can be very effective and something I believe many of the past architects explored more so than now. Thhough as noted these bunkers are not shared, this feature should be more prominent. I believe Doak, Ian and others have mentioned this before with 'borrowing' views from the distant landscape for visual and strategic reasons. It has been a staple in historical landscape architecture and garden design in Europe.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2007, 08:47:38 AM »

Though not greenside bunkers, Mark Fine and I are considering a few locations for shared fairway bunkers on a project (old course about 1922) we have in eastern NY. We'll keep you posted.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:03:26 AM »

After tree clearing between the greens and around them, here is a view of the 16th (near) and 11th greens at Philadelphia Country Club from the 16th fairway. There is a terrific centerline bunker that has to be just carried (barely visible) to feed the ball onto the very small crescent shaped green with its stern bunkering.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:53:19 PM »

The 12th and 15th holes at Fieldstone near Wilmington, Delaware have a set of bunkers between their shared fairway. There is also abandoned ruins of a stone home that is an integral part of the course and is in play for both holes in the center of the shared fairway. The course is a Hurdzan/Fry design and the two holes in question play well.

« **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2007, 05:57:32 PM »

Wayne--

My recent visit to Philly CC gave me an appreciation of the look and play of the three hole area of 11, 12, and 16. It was not as firm as fast as during the season, but the approach to 16, the shot shown in your picture, is one of the coolest and most interesting approach shots I have seen. There are so many options on how to play that show and it generally leads to the player making a mistake.

My question would be whether or not the hole is too short for today's game to bring all of the options into play because we were coming in their with 8 and 9 irons (on a chilly December day) and the helping slope wasn't as much of a factor.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2007, 06:03:06 PM »

Fenway GC (Tillinghast) has a beautiful shared bunker between the short par 4 8th and the long par 4 12th.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2007, 06:05:51 PM »

Adam,

I'm not sure how the hole plays for you, I never play from the forward tees

I agree with you, Adam. This is one great approach shot with some of the attributes of Lehigh's longer 10th only trickier with the downslope and tiny green.

If the ground is firm and fast, as we know Mike McNulty likes to keep it, then the ball tends to run down the end of the fairway and usually to the right following the slope. This leaves a very delicate shot over the deep right greenside bunker to a very shallow green.

Other times the ball can end up on the severe downslope well short of the centerline bunker. You have to hit a lofted shot over the bunker to a precise landing area to feed onto the green. I hope Chet Walsh will post (haven't seen him on here in a loooong time). He is one of the district's finest players and he of course has played the hole 1000 times or so, or about 9000 times less than Jim Finegan, Sr.

The trees on the right and the deep rough on the left make a wayward shot a very difficult recovery. I probably should hit 3-wood off the tee and have a longer but level lie for my approach. What do you think?

« **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2007, 07:33:50 PM »

How bout the 18th hole at Bethpage Black and the first hole at Bethpage Red, they share fairway bunkers.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:30:24 PM »

The Cardinal Bunker at Prestwick shared by the second shot on Hole 3 and the Green on Hole 16 comes to mind.

Cruden Bay #11 greenside bunkers also serve as fairway bunkers for #10 if you are quite wayward.

Of course as mentioned St. Andrews has many shared bunkers...

« **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:56:36 PM »

Hazeltine #9 and #18.

I seem to remember a shared greenside bunker at Taconic--I want to say that it's between the green of #11 and the green of #8.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:33:27 PM »

Wayne--

That's right.....that's ONE STEP FORWARD of the back edge of the farthest back tee!!!!!

You're correct about playing a three wood off that tee. First of all, it gives you a level lie for the approach instead of a hanging, downhill, sidehill like I had. Two, the last thing you want to do on that hole is leave a partial show to that tiny green. It's a great hole; fun, enjoyable, and birdieable with two good shots.

Geoffrey C--

Good pick up on Fenway, I had forgotten about those two holes.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2007, 10:01:46 PM »

Andrew,

I've dug up a few photo's from the library of the 3rd and 15th at RSGC.

Pic 1 is the previous 15th from about 100m out.

Pic 2 is a zoomed in angle from the right of the 15th with the old 3rd visible on the right.

Pic 3 is looking through the gap with the old 3rd green on the left and the old 15th on the right.

Pic 4 is a slightly different angle of the new 3rd green

Pic 5 is the 3rd under construction.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 16, 2007, 08:08:49 AM »

Quote from: Richard Chamberlain on January 15, 2007, 10:01:46 PM

Andrew,

I've dug up a few photo's from the library of the 3rd and 15th at RSGC.

Pic 1 is the previous 15th from about 100m out.

Richard, here is the current view.

James B

« **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2007, 05:16:40 AM »

Thanks for that, Richard. I was sure the previous 3rd/15th complex wasn't as shared as they are now and your photos show that nicely.

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