Golfweek State-by-State

« **on:** January 02, 2007, 05:50:03 PM »

This is pathetic!!

I have practically begged GCA'ers to come to Kentucky to play the great 'Signature Series' courses. It is apparent that no one here who is remotely connected to this insane list of Best-in-State courses EVER has.

Actually, four of the five courses 'listed' are pretty good, though in no wise can the list NOT include some of the 'Signatures'. The #3 course on the list is shining mediocrity!

I actually thought some on Ohio and Indiana were not too bad. But then, people here have actually played those courses.

This shows the poverty of trying to list 'Best' courses when you never have played them.

Get you asses to Kentucky and try the courses this clever fellow member has suggested before you make a fool of yourselves again next time, please.

Yours truly disgusted;

Doug

« **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2007, 05:54:22 PM »

What the heck are you talking about?

« **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2007, 05:55:29 PM »

What is the website for these courses?

« **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:02:23 PM »

Quote from: Doug Ralston on January 02, 2007, 05:50:03 PM

This is pathetic!!

I have practically begged GCA'ers to come to Kentucky to play the great 'Signature Series' courses. It is apparent that no one here who is remotely connected to this insane list of Best-in-State courses EVER has.

Actually, four of the five courses 'listed' are pretty good, though in no wise can the list NOT include some of the 'Signatures'. The #3 course on the list is shining mediocrity!

I actually thought some on Ohio and Indiana were not too bad. But then, people here have actually played those courses.

This shows the poverty of trying to list 'Best' courses when you never have played them.

Get you asses to Kentucky and try the courses this clever fellow member has suggested before you make a fool of yourselves again next time, please.

Yours truly disgusted;

Doug

Doug -

I've never played any of the signature series courses as my extended family lives in the Louisville area. But, I have played Quail Chase, and it would be really sad if that was really the #3 public course in the entire state. I don't think it would crack the Top-50 public courses in Michigan.

But, I don't believe the rankings on the golfweek website are updated. Have they been revised in the latest issue or something? The online rankings look the same they have beenfor some time.

Mike

« **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:02:34 PM »

http://www.golfweek.com/americasbest/statebystate.php

« **Reply #5 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:12:12 PM »

mj;

I just came across these rankings while searching for something else online. I was horrified, because I have heard GCA'ers talking about GolfWeek, and seeming to extoll their rankings. Some of the courses in other States are quite recent creations, so the list cannot be too old.

I just do not know. Better they had just admitted that they have not played enough Kentucky courses to make a list, than to make this kind of absurd list, of which admittedly no one but those few of us who have played there would likely comprehend the poverty.

« **Reply #6 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:15:23 PM »

Doug,

Do you know the list is public access only?

« **Reply #7 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:18:27 PM »

Minnesota
1. Giants Ridge (Quarry), Biwabik (m)
2. Deacon's Lodge, Brainerd (m)
3. The Classic at Madden's Lake, Brainerd (m)
4. StoneRidge, St. Paul (m)
5. Legends Club, Prior Lake (m)
6. Dacotah Ridge, Morton (m)*
7. Wilderness at Fortune Bay, Tower (m)*
8. Chaska Town Course, Chaska (m)
9. Rush Creek, Maple Grove (m)
10. The Pines of Grand View Lodge, Nisswa (m)

This is the only state list I'm qualified to pass judgment on, but glancing at it quickly, I'd flip the Wilderness and Deacon's Lodge, and flip Rush Creek and Legends Club. Plus, there's got to be a better public access course for #10 than The Pines. Just off the top of my head, I'd rate The Wilds over The Pines. Logger's Trail, too.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:29:22 PM »

Jordan;

All I can ever play ARE publics, so that makes those lists of great value to me. And there are 30 or more public courses in Kentucky better that Quail Chase, which is playable but really not 'special' in any way. The others on the list are better, and Old Silo and Lassing Point likely could make a 'Best Five'. The other three, from the Signature Series, should be Dale Hollow, Eagle Ridge, and Hidden Cove. IMHO.

It seems clear to me the this list comes from 'word of mouth' and other rumor. Again, come and play, you will not be sorry. Never yet met anyone who regretted going to Dale Hollow Lake, where not only great golf is played, but the best smallmouth fishing in the Country is enjoyed.

Rick;

Thanks for the Minnesota List. My friend and I have been hoping to get a trip up that way this year. Giant's Ridge and Wilderness are our main goals.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2007, 07:27:13 PM »

Its interesting to see that Golfweek panelists also have new course envy much like the other magazines. #6 Callippe Preserve is a very new public golf course which is pretty good, but not nearly as good as most of the courses listed below it.

I'll give them credit for identifying Coyote Moon on the list.

California
1. Pebble Beach Golf Links, Pebble Beach (No. 5 c)
2. Spyglass Hill, Pebble Beach (No. 15 m)
3. Pasatiempo, Santa Cruz (No. 33 c)
4. Rustic Canyon, Moorpark (No. 75 m)
5. Barona Creek, Lakeside (No. 93 m)
6. Callippe Preserve, Pleasanton (m)*
7. PGA West (Stadium), La Quinta (m)
8. Darkhorse, Auburn (m)
9. Saddle Creek, Cooperopolis (m)
10. Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach (m)
11. Golf Club at Whitehawk Ranch, Clio (m)*
12. Shadow Ridge, Palm Desert (m)*
13. Torrey Pines (South), La Jolla (c)
14. Coyote Moon, Truckee (m)
15. Pelican Hill (Ocean), Newport Coast (m)

« **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2007, 07:33:10 PM »

I would agree Joel, thats a pretty decent cali list but Callippe Preserve is a head scratcher to me as well.

I've played a handful of those and Callippe isn't even in the same ballpark.

BTW, where is Donnies course on that list? I thought it was best course in America, much less CA.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 02, 2007, 07:40:01 PM »

Doug,

Are Dale Hollow and Hidden Cove Arthur Hills courses? I am going to check the list to see what is on there. I will let you know in a few.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 02, 2007, 07:45:51 PM »

Ok, I have only played 1.2.9.10 in Ohio. I guess the list is reasonable. I thought Cook's Creek was an absolute mess though, I would imagine there are some better courses than that. They certainly aren't in Dayton or Cincinnati though. Actually, now that I think of it, Apple Valley cetainly belongs on this list ahead of Cook's Creek for sure. Apple Valley is in the middle of nowhere, but it is a very fine golf course. I would have no problem recommending it to anyone. I have played it 10 times and I would play it another 10.

« **Reply #13 on:** January 02, 2007, 09:20:26 PM »

Indiana
1. Fort GC, Indianapolis (m)
2. Prairie View, Carmel (m)
3. Warren GC at Notre Dame, South Bend (m)
4. Purgatory, Noblesville (m)
5. Brickyard Crossing, Speedway (m)
6. Trophy Club, Lebanon (m)*
7. Otter Creek, Columbus (c)
8. Harrison Hills, Attica (c)
9. Heartland Crossing Golf Links, Camby (m)*
10. Rock Hollow, Peru (m)

Out of the Indiana group, I've played 1, 3, 7, and 10. IMO, Rock Hollow should be higher, The Fort is about right (I prefer Rock Hollow, but its close). Sultan's Run should be on there, with Otter Creek being the one I'd drop of the ones I've played. Warren should be on the list, but #3 is a bit higher than I'd put it.

New Mexico
1. Paa-Ko Ridge, Sandia Park (No. 37 m)
2. Black Mesa, La Mesilla (No. 62 m)
3. Twin Warriors, Santa Ana Pueblo (m)
4. Pinion Hills GC, Farmington (m)
5. University of New Mexico (South), Albuquerque (m)

In NM, I think Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa are a clear 1-2 in one order or the other. I liked the UNM Course better than Twin Warriors, and haven't played Cochiti.

Essentially though, really can't complain too much about either list from my experience.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2007, 09:54:58 PM »

Glenn;

No, Hidden Cove and Dale Hollow are golf as it Ault to be!

I think Hidden Cove would be well recieved here. And Eagle Ridge [Hills; but actually Forrest was the on site archi] is very minimal and as exciting a layout as you will find. We have got to get you over there!

« **Reply #15 on:** January 02, 2007, 09:57:49 PM »

I'm a little confused by the opening post but I think the Virginia list is okay.

Virginia
1. Homestead Resort (Cascades), Hot Springs (No. 44 c)
2. Royal New Kent, Providence Forge (m)
3. Mattaponi Springs, Ruther Glen (m)*
4. Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Williamsburg (m)
5. Riverfront GC at Harbor View, Suffolk (m)
6. Independence, Williamsburg (m)
7. Bay Creek (Palmer Course), Cape Charles (m)*
8. Kingsmill (River), Williamsburg (m)
9. Augustine, Stafford (m)
10. Stonewall, Gainesville (m)

My order for the ten courses listed would be:
1. Homestead Resort (Cascades), Hot Springs (No. 44 c)
2. Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Williamsburg (m)
3. Bay Creek (Palmer Course), Cape Charles (m)*
4. Kingsmill (River), Williamsburg (m)
5. Royal New Kent, Providence Forge (m)
6. Mattaponi Springs, Ruther Glen (m)*
7. Riverfront GC at Harbor View, Suffolk (m)
8. Independence, Williamsburg (m)
9. Augustine, Stafford (m)
10. Stonewall, Gainesville (m)

« **Reply #16 on:** January 02, 2007, 10:02:41 PM »

My other thought on the California list is that Harding Park is not listed. After spending $40 million on a refurbish then hosting the Amex which Tiger won it gets a goose egg in the ranking(s).

« **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2007, 10:40:14 PM »

Interesting that Pelican Hill is on the list as it has been closed for 12 months and will be for another 12!

« **Reply #18 on:** January 02, 2007, 11:59:17 PM »

IMO Ohio's list is garbage:

Ohio

1. Longaberger, Nashport
2. Shaker Run, Lebanon
3. Boulder Creek, Streetsboro
4. Avalon G&CC (Avalon/Lakes), Warren
5. Hickory Hills, Grove
6. Aston, North Bend
7. Stonewater, Cleveland
8. Rattlesnake Ridge, Sundbury
9. Elk's Run, Batavia
10. Cooke's Creek, Columbus

Longaberger at 1, Shaker Run at 2, Boulder Creek at 3, Aston Oaks (you have got to be kidding me) at 6, Rattlesnake Ridge is private and has been for 2 or 3 years and even if it was public is not in the top 10, Elk's Run at 9 and Cooke's Creek and 10 should not be on the list.

Some in Ohio that could/should (note all are public access at some time - some semi-private):

Sleepy Hollow GC Great Stanley Thompson course in Cleveland

The GC at Stonelick Hills is the best course in Batavia Ohio and a heck of a lot better than Elks Run by Norman

Blue Heron GC (Lakes/Highlands) John Robinson course in Medina that just make Golf Digest's Best New in 2006.

Elks CC under the radar Ross in Portsmouth, OH

Little Mountain CC Concord, OH I put this Hurdzan and Fry above Stonewater

Blackmoor GC Wintersville, OH (terrific John Robinson course on an extremly undulating site)

Castle Shannon GC wild course on some wild terrain with bold greens and at one time bolder bunkering (many have been grassed in)

Salt Fork State Park GC very fun Kidwell in Salt Fork State Park

Oak Shadows GC unknown John Robinson course in New Philadephia, OH

Auman Timbers GC for shear wow factor on 10 holes - Wild Robinson course in Dover, OH that just opened full 18 - conditions can be a problem, but course is a blast.

Crystal Springs GC Hopewell, OH would probably not make the top ten, but is better than several on Golfweek's list

Granville GC Ross in Granville, OH

Note to Glenn / Doug, I do not have any Art Hills courses on the list and for good reason with all the other quality courses that are availible in the State.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 03, 2007, 12:06:13 AM »

I took a peek at the TN list, and I'm surprised that Greystone isn't on the list. The Legends and Ross Creek Landing are both solid public offerings. I'm not a big fan of the Hermitage course or the Harrison Bay selections.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 03, 2007, 12:18:38 AM »

Wisconsin:

1. Straits Course at Whistling Straits, Mosel (No. 4 m)
2. Blackwolf Run (River), Kohler (No. 21, m)
3. Lawsonia (Links), Green Lake (No. 61, c)
4. The Bull at Pinehurst Farms, Sheboygan Falls (m)
5. Irish Course at Whistling Straits, Mosel (m)
6. Big Fish, Hayward (m)*
7. Blackwolf Run (Meadow Valleys), Kohler (m)
8. University Ridge GC, Verona (m)
9. Troy Burne, Hudson (m)
10. SentryWorld, Stevens Point, (m)

I actually think most knowledgeable Wisconsin golfers with a bent for architecture might think this list is a pretty good one, and a pretty good gauge of the state's top 10. I personally think University Ridge continues to be over-rated, and there are some golfers who would probably quibble with some of the bottom three -- e.g., RTJ Sr.'s House on the Rock Resort course (formerly the Springs, near Frank Lloyd Wright's digs in Spring Green) gets overlooked by lots of ranking types because of the numerous financial difficulties associated with the place, but it remains a very solid course over very good and scenic terrain.

Is Wisconsin the only state that has a public-access course that's a regular stop on the PGA tour that doesn't make its state's top 10?

« **Reply #21 on:** January 03, 2007, 12:20:47 AM »

Quote from: Doug Ralston on January 02, 2007, 05:50:03 PM

This is pathetic!!

I have practically begged GCA'ers to come to Kentucky to play the great 'Signature Series' courses. It is apparent that no one here who is remotely connected to this insane list of Best-in-State courses EVER has.

Guilty. I think the only thing I've played in Kentucky is the Audubon State Park course when I was living in Evansville.

There are only 17 courses from the entire state on our ballot. I have no idea how many of those aren't private. Perhaps some of those that you deem worthy aren't even eligible right now.

While you may take exception to the Kentucky list, the aggregate is pretty good. I've looked at the states where I'm most familiar and don't see big oversights or obvious errors. Remember this... if you already know how you'd rank courses in that area you don't need anyone else to tell you. I think you'd find it more helpful if traveling to an area so it can serve as a starting point.

Right or wrong, Kentucky isn't known for world-class golf. (Seems like it could be with the terrain and grasses.) As a result you are correct that it hasn't been as well-surveyed as South Carolina, Florida, Arizona, Michigan, or California.

« **Reply #22 on:** January 03, 2007, 01:44:33 AM »

Phil,

La Cantera and TPC of Las Colinas check in on this list at 11 & 12 in Texas. Both host tour stops. I would put La Cantera in the top 10 (barely). The Texas list is pretty good on the whole. I'd move Pine Dunes up a spot. The Bandit is fun but too high at 7, and I'd find room for The Tribute in there somewhere.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 03, 2007, 09:37:42 AM »

The issue with most state ratings is the "drive-by" panelist who only enters the state and simply plays what time permits -- you can also call him / her the cherry-picker.

Generally, many of these same folks follow the "herd" mentality -- that means they simply go with the standard list of courses and simply reinforce their position over and over again with more rounds. The process of change through such actions is really quite s-l-o-w.

The only real way to have state ratings count for something is to give greater weight to those who see and play the greater bulk of courses within their state -- but also to weigh more points for those rounds played most recently.

No doubt the outside "rater" needs to be calculated into the process because sometimes people who see the same courses so much can also be blinded by pure favorites. However, to assume the outsider is as knowledgeable or more importantly, up-to-date, as the insider is off base from my years in being involved and in my own estimate of courses that have either been way overrated or those that are undervalued.

« **Reply #24 on:** January 03, 2007, 09:43:37 AM »

One other aspect I forgot to include which some of the ratings are following: mandate certain raters play a wider variety of courses -- this prevents the "homers" from ganging up on those layouts that they wish to bounce further up the food chain. Ditto if the effort works in reverse to keep other courses from rising up.

The other thing that's helpful about mandated course ratings is that it demonstrates if panelists are serious about visiting other courses within a given area.

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