[Matt_Ward]

I've been absent for quite some time because of a host of reasons -- many thanks for those who wondered but now I decided to "wake up and smelled the coffee" --   -- alas I'm back and wish to provide a thread to conclude the 2006 golf season with my personal listing of A-Wards.

WINNER OF THE "I GET IT NOW" A-WARD ... envelope please.

Dismal River.

Credit Jack Nicklaus and team for a stellar job with a layout that borrows much of what many favor here on GCA. The fairways are amply wide for the varying weather patterns that can blow through the area.

In addition, the scale of the place and the unique routing call for a high array of shots throughout the round. Nicklaus has given sufficient consideration for all types of players but it behooves the player to understand the Eastwood maxim (A man's got to know his limitations).

Playing the wrong tees at DR and having no more than a so-so game is s clear recipe for a big time Titanic sinking.

No doubt some of what Nicklaus learned at Sebonack is alive and well at Dismal. There will be people who moan and groan about the 10th hole and likely a few others but I see them as fair game for the player to overcome.

Yes, the 13th is abysmal as a hole but credit Nicklaus and team for understanding their error and their desire to right the wrong.

If Dimal River were designed by a favorite son of "dies in the wool" classical school GCA types -- the probability -- check that -- the near certainty of applause would go through the roof.

More than anything else I credit Nicklaus for having a pragmatic sense and for fully realizing that having an evolution of one's design philosophy is perfectly acceptable and frankly worthy of emulation by others. Doing the "same" type of course over and over again is truly a waste of time, money and land sites.

Dismal River is not easy to access to play (location and it's desire to be a reclusive private club) but for those who get the opportunity to play the course will keep your attention from the 1st tee shot (a stellar opening hole) to the climb up the long par-5 18th with its partially hidden green on the 3rd shot.


A-WARD FOR BEST PUBLIC IN A AREA WITH GREAT PRIVATE CLUBS BUT LITTLE OF MEANING FOR THE DAILY FEE PLAYER

Envelope please ...

Lederach

Hats off to Kelly Blake Moran for this unique, fun and rarely conventional layout. The greater Philadelphia area is blessed with an array of top tier private clubs. The public side is not so fortunate. Lederach is owned by the town of Harleysville and the layout simply reinforces the fact that Moran is not only talented but capable in doing designs that are not carbon copy mail-in efforts of repetition after repetition.

The green dimensions are once again the pivotal element when you play Lederach but Moran has gone forward in throwing forward strategic consequences off many of the tee shots when you play there.

Lederach will likely turn off a number of daily fee players who have grown accustomed to fast food vanilla public golf -- plenty of that saturates the greater Philadelphia area. However Lederach has elevated the bar by a considerable fashion and the range of shots you face now provides a facility where your blood doesn't have to be taken to see if it's blue or that your wallet needs to come forward with two credit cards to play it.

More to follow -- happy holidays to all throughout the kingdom of GCA !!!

[Matt_Ward]

A-WARD FOR BEST DYNAMIC DUO ...

Envelope Please ...

Doak & Nicklaus via Sebonack

Yes, the hype and power players connected to this place are known to anyone who has not been in a cave the last year.

Sebonack is also a layout that will not suffer fools -- here the marriage of Doak (the man with the gifted "look" skills) and Nicklaus (the game's premier player with pardons to Tiger for now) have come together to create a tour de force layout that will in a short order of time be mentioned in the same sentence as its two more noted neighbors.

Sebonack interweaves a stellar site with a never ending change of pace routing. Comfort is not something the architects have provided. The player is always being challenged to do something a BIT DIFFERENT. Unlike other Doak layouts I have played (12 played to date and for full disclosure I have not been "down under" yet) this one has some serious teeth and for that the Nicklaus team deserve a good bit of applause. Yes, Doak excels at the touchy feely but Sebonack is more than just a "good looking" layout -- it has heavyweight holes that flex muscle when needed.

Much will be written on the 2nd hole at Sebonack. Count me in as a big time fan of the hole. The change of pace from the 1st hole to the rigors of the 2nd hole are truly well done and demonstrate that the Doak / Nicklaus (should I pair the billing that way?) tandem have managed to raise the ante on both of their profiles through their work here.

Too often collaboration can mean a lessening in terms of what is ultimately produced as compromises sometimes become the dominant ingredient. No doubt there was an ebb and flow between the two men but at the end of the day the final result at Sebonack demonstrates that the talent of the "I" has been seemlessly merged together in a "we" formula that leaves you with only one word when exiting the final hole ...

WOW !

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Nice to see you back, Pardner.

You'd better get back to some heavy liftin' around here because this site just about imploded today.  

[Eric Pevoto]

Delicious!

[Adam Clayman]

WINNER OF THE "I GET IT NOW" A-WARD ... envelope please.

Dismal River.

Credit Jack Nicklaus and team for a stellar job with a layout that borrows much of what many favor here on GCA. The fairways are amply wide for the varying weather patterns that can blow through the area.

In addition, the scale of the place and the unique routing call for a high array of shots throughout the round. Nicklaus has given sufficient consideration for all types of players but it behooves the player to understand the Eastwood maxim (A man's got to know his limitations).

Playing the wrong tees at DR and having no more than a so-so game is s clear recipe for a big time Titanic sinking.

No doubt some of what Nicklaus learned at Sebonack is alive and well at Dismal. There will be people who moan and groan about the 10th hole and likely a few others but I see them as fair game for the player to overcome.

Yes, the 13th is abysmal as a hole but credit Nicklaus and team for understanding their error and their desire to right the wrong.

If Dimal River were designed by a favorite son of "dies in the wool" classical school GCA types -- the probability -- check that -- the near certainty of applause would go through the roof.

More than anything else I credit Nicklaus for having a pragmatic sense and for fully realizing that having an evolution of one's design philosophy is perfectly acceptable and frankly worthy of emulation by others. Doing the "same" type of course over and over again is truly a waste of time, money and land sites.

Dismal River is not easy to access to play (location and it's desire to be a reclusive private club) but for those who get the opportunity to play the course will keep your attention from the 1st tee shot (a stellar opening hole) to the climb up the long par-5 18th with its partially hidden green on the 3rd shot.

Since the course already needs changing, wouldn't it best to call the A-Ward "I almost get it now"?

Matt, When you originally critiqued this course you erroniously mentioned the use of Buffalo grass. There isn't a blade. Did someone tell you there was Buffalo grass?

Above, you state the corridors are wide enough for the weather patterns. Are you speculating? How do you know that?

Re; The 13th. The course construction began on May 15th 2005. It opened August 4th 2006. Do you know why it took until the innaugral round to figure out there was a problem? Why wasn't it changed prior?

There's more, but I'll wait to see your responses to these.

[cary lichtenstein]

Thank goodness you're back

Cary

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Welcome back. I thought you were lost in Wyoming.

Yes, Lederach is a breath of fresh air in the Philadelphia public scene just as Glen Mills was a few years ago.  We should all be eagerly awaiting KBM's new course in Bucks County in 2008- Heritage Creek.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

THE A-WARD FOR BEST USE OF EARTHMOVING ...

The envelope please -

Bayonne GC

Hats off to developer & designer Eric Bergstol in creating Bayonne GC in Hudson County, NJ -- a destination no one could even conceive as a first rate 18-hole layout location.

Bersgtol moved several million yards of material to create the finished product and Bayonne GC is indeed a sight to behold. As you drive towards the course you have the uneasy feeling you are headed to a final ending -- a fate some have found on the Sopranos -- how appropriate given the Jersey venue!

The layout clearly is "imported" but the fun factor when playing is certainly present from the very beginnings with the 1st tee shot which transports you to any key starting hole on an Irish links.

For those who have the opportunity Bayonne will provide a unique experience and best of all you get the NYC panorama in the background.


Steve:

Lederach is a good bit beyond Glen Mills. I give the latter better marks on the turf side of the equation but Lederach still has to mature.

Philadelphia public golf is truly a big time downer when compared to the private side of the ledger. The addition of Lederach has certainly made a major change in that reality and hopefully will mean continued progress on that front.

Like you I am eager to see what Kelly does with Heritage Creek.

Adam:

I salute Nicklaus and his design team because the existing 13th does need changes and they were quick to admit as much. I've seen previous instances where architects simply hunker down with a finished product and plunk their head deep into the sand when critical comments are brought forward.

The delay in making changes stems from one major item which you failed to state or even realize. One needs to actually play a hole to see if the design thoughts are actually carried forward when playing the hole. Sometimes what's designed -- what's eventually built -- and how it actually plays can be totally different. The proposed changes to #13 make sense to me given how the original hole played when I was there. I don't hold back any course from making improvements when warranted simply because few, if any, courses are ever perfect from the get-go.

In regards to the buffalo grass I was told there was some on the course and in other areas it would be planted.

Last point -- the fairways are wide enough at Dismal River on many holes to handle an approaching 747. Adam -- when I pace 50-60 yards across I consider that to be wide. Maybe you need the width of Kansas to keep your tee ball in play.

[Adam Clayman]

One needs to actually play a hole to see if the design thoughts are actually carried forward when playing the hole.

Matt, I find this statement contrary to the "in the dirt" philosophies, Jack and team were trying to emulate.
 I do find it uber odd that out of all the team members who travesed the property, prior to the innaugral, no one noticed the severity? Maybe they noticed but were to afraid to speak up? Ahhh, the pressures of company politics.

As I recall the hole, the leftside needs to be expanded farther-out, or, the steepness of the hill, in the LZ, needs softening. Is that your take? Or, Is there more that needs to be done?


As an aside for those who craft the deals and the courses;

Who pays for a re-do?

[George Pazin]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and welcome back.

Many vaunted courses have been tweaked over the years. In many  cases, I think it reflects a healthy self esteem on the case of the architect, that he was willing to make a change for the better.

Of course, sometimes others get carried away with changes....

[Ash Towe]

Great to have you back.
This site is the better for having you.

[Mark_F]

This one has some serious teeth and for that the Nicklaus team deserve a good bit of applause. Yes, Doak excels at the touchy feely but Sebonack is more than just a "good looking" layout -- it has heavyweight holes that flex muscle when needed.

Too often collaboration can mean a lessening in terms of what is ultimately produced as compromises sometimes become the dominant ingredient.  

Sebonack demonstrates that the talent of the "I" has been seemlessly merged together in a "we" formula that leaves you with only one word when exiting the final hole ...

What are the holes that have serious teeth, Matt?
Are they long par fours?

I've only played a couple of Doak layouts, yet to me, the ones that have serious teeth are the short ones - 7 or 15 Barnbougle, 2 or 9 St Andrews Beach.

All four of those holes are just as likely to see a good player make triple as a bad one make birdie or par, then to top it off, on both Doak has built some severely difficult par fours that are as heavyweight as anything you would ever want.

I doubt there are as many high scores by the good players on the two or three really difficult holes because they would realise they can't be overpowered - whereas the brain goes into meltdown when confronted by a 110 metre par three or 279 metre par four.

And clearly Sebonack may be different in the flesh,and I don't have all that much experience with Doak courses, but of the photo's I've seen, it looks like someone trying to imitate a Doak course.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark F:

You aksed, "What are the holes that have serious teeth, Matt? Are they long par fours?"

*The second, third, seventh, eleventh and soon to be "new" sixteenth are all in such a category.

In fact, one can make the argument that the second at Sebonack may be the most demanding / difficult -- apply whatever word one wish -- that I have seen Doak involved with.

The tee shot is quite taxing for both length and position and the green site requires a flawless approach because of the contours that surround the area.

Keep in mind that the varied routing at Sebonack makes you play in different directions so that the wind is never from one particular area. For example, when you play the 2nd it heads in a southerly direction -- the third goes back a different way with a green perched up high above the fairway. In addition, at the third if any approach shot has too much juice and bounces up the slope and finishes above the green it will take nothing less than Seve in his absolute prime to up'n down for a par.

Mark, you said, "And clearly Sebonack may be different in the flesh,and I don't have all that much experience with Doak courses, but of the photo's I've seen, it looks like someone trying to imitate a Doak course."

I don't know what you mean by that. I've played the course and I can see the marriage between what Doak and Nicklaus have done at Sebonack. To Tom's considerable credit the finished routing is extremely well done -- in fact -- I believe it's the strength of the course because all corners of the property are brought forward and the golfer cannot rely upon any one particular playing strength when encountering the holes presented.

Mark -- I've been fortunate to have played a dozen of Doak designs. Sebonack is the finest of the lot I've played to date. I hope in a short time I will venture "down under" and play the ones he has created in your "neck of the woods."

Adam:

Allow me to restate what I said for you to better understand what I said initially. There are plenty of holes I have played over the years in which what was contemplated in a drawing room and what actually takes place when played with real players and real clubs / balls can be a good bit different.

The 13th at Dismal River fits that bill.

You throw forward such ignorant phrases as "company politics" and I would think you would understand what I stated in the above paragraph. I give credit to any designer / owner, etc, etc -- with the desire to always seek to improve situations when called upon. The flip side is to simply hunker down and credit any type of rationale to defend such a hole even when the actual play says otherwise.

In regards to the proposed solution I believe the actual green would be moved slightly from where it is now. The time table for the work is supposed to happen soon although when I was there the precise date was not finalized. In regards to cost I have no idea but given the nature of what the project is about I would say that fixing something that is amiss goes a long way to adding to the considerable qualities Dismal River has.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Good words you stated above:

"I give credit to any designer / owner, etc, etc -- with the desire to always seek to improve situations when called upon. The flip side is to simply hunker down and credit any type of rationale to defend such a hole even when the actual play says otherwise."

In this regard, in case you missed it, I previously posted about changes being made to expand the 9th green at Lederach to give more pin positions. This is a welcome change for those of us who play the course regularly.The original green on this short hole was just too small.

Steve

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Thanx for shining through on that last response.

Since this isn't the first episode of a Nicklaus course needing MAJOR changes, I assumed it was company related. Having heard how hard of a man Jack is to work with, in my ignorance, I put the two together.

[John Kirk]

Hello, Matt.  Welcome back from your self-imposed exile.

First, a lowly number 6 ranking in Golf Digest's best new category, and then no A-Ward for Ballyneal.  It's a conspiracy!

Matt wrote:

"This one has some serious teeth and for that the Nicklaus team deserve a good bit of applause. Yes, Doak excels at the touchy feely but Sebonack is more than just a "good looking" layout -- it has heavyweight holes that flex muscle when needed."


I have read and heard this analysis more than once.  This must drive Tom D. crazy.  I'd argue that what looks good does in fact look good because it's strategically sound.  Very difficult to separate the look from the strategy.  Besides, anybody can make a course tough by reducing green size or fairway width or making up and downs from off the green difficult.  It's a matter of taste.

Trying to justify the collaboration between the two great architects by saying Doak builds beautiful courses, while Nicklaus excels at strategic issues is a backhanded compliment.  Both build beautiful, strategic courses.  It is my understanding that TD and JN have significantly different philosophies in terms of how difficult a course should be, and where the difficulty should be presented.  As a result compromises were made.

I toured the course this year.  It is lovely, and I hope to play it someday.  And Matt, please don't view this as a serious criticism of your analysis.  I'm picking on a common perception of the roles the two architects played.

The 2nd hole is a beautiful par 4.5, but looks no more difficult than the 18th at Stone Eagle.

[PThomas]

. Yes, Doak excels at the touchy feely

 This must drive Tom D. crazy.  

I thought the same thing John...I hope Tom D responds, and perhaps Matt can further elaborate, cause I'm not sure what he means by that

and Matt also said Sebonack is the best of the Doak designs he's seen...that's saying a whole lot!...and I can't disagree because I haven't seen Sebonack...but better than Pac Dunes!?!?!

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Glad to hear the news at Lederach -- the 9th will only become an even better hole.

John:

I L-O-V-E-D Ballyneal.

How it finished that low with Digest simply astounds me. I guess since I left the ratings for Digest it's become obvious they must miss me.

John -- have you played Sebonack or did you simply walk it? I simply commented on what Mark said about demanding long holes. Here at Sebonack the collaboration of Nicklaus / Doak or Doak / Nicklaus has created a solid array of holes and there's more to the course than just the touchy feely type situations (see the 5th hole at Sebonack as a quick example).

John -- hate to break the news to you -- the 2nd at Seboanck is more demanding than the 18th at Stone Eagle and I do love the hole in Palm Desert. The green site at Sebonack is unyielding and the tee shot is a bit more challenging. The 18th at Stone Eagle has a wonderful green but the tee shot allows for a grip and rip type play.

My analysis of Doak and Nicklaus is likely short of detail but I see the "look" of a Doak layout being tied together with the "eye" of what Jack provides as the premier player (Tiger notwithstanding for the moment) as the world's greatest player. That's not a backhanded compliment.

John, I understand that sheer difficulty is not important. But creating challenge that can grab the attention of the better player is never easy to accomplish. Sebonack does provide a first rate challenge when the appropriate tees are played. The marriage between Doak & Nicklaus has done much and IMHO over the course of time will be seen as collaboration worthy of being mentioned in the same manner as Mackenzie and Jones at Augusta.

[John Kirk]

Matt,

I gotta go.  I'll try and respond more later.  Remember that the 18th at Stone Eagle has a pinch point in the fairway around 300 yards off the tee.  It's way downhill, so I have to hit a solid drive to get past the pinch point.  I often hit 3 wood to stay short.  You've got to be accurate to +/- 12-15 yards to get through the slot.  I remember 2 at Sebonack, and I still say the overall difficulty for me would be about the same.  You hit it farther than I do, so you may fly it over the pinch point at 18 Stone Eagle, but if you make a mistake, it's a two shot penalty.

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting thread all, sebonack sounds like a one of a kind.

I'm not familiar with the pre and post 13th hole, can anyone elaborate on what it was before and after?  

Thanks,  

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, you said, "I've been fortunate to have played a dozen of Doak designs. Sebonack is the finest of the lot I've played to date."

Does that mean you rank Sebonack higher than Ballyneal?  If I recall right, you put Ballyneal at or above Sand Hills.  

BTW, I'm glad to see you posting again.  

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Having heard Jack Nicklaus give me credit for the "look" of Sebonack at least ten times while reserving credit himself for its playing qualities, and hearing Michael Pascucci say the same thing more than once, listening to Matt do the same thing is not so hard.  

Decorum insisted that I just smile at the podium along with Jack, but Matt should keep in mind that I have no similar rules of etiquette regarding him.

I have no idea whether it is the best course I've done -- I'll let others decide that, and Matt gets one vote.  But if it IS the best, it is NOT just because it's the hardest course we've built, and it's not because I just laid back and let Jack do all the design work, either.  

My team should get fair credit for our input on the design of the individual holes, but we haven't, because everybody is anxious to give Jack responsbility for something so it will appear to be a 50-50 partnership.  I'm not here to argue about what percentage of the total job we did, but to imply that Jack did all of the design details of the holes at Sebonack is just wrong.  The official history neglects to mention that many of the greens were shaped into their rough form by one or another of my associates, based on a minimum of instructions.  By my count, Jack and I each designed five or six of the greens from scratch, and others did the rest.  

In our walk-throughs, Jack was the most likely to suggest adding another bunker to give the better player more options to choose from, and I was more likely to be the one looking for ways to keep the course playable for the 15-handicapper, but even then, sometimes the shoe was on the other foot.  We collaborated; that's the way it should be written.  To have Matt (or anyone else) trying to assign credit for who did what is speculation, and much of the speculation I've read about Sebonack has been way off the mark.

[PThomas]

Tom, you might have to write a Sebonack book after you finish your P Dunes book!

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I didn't place Sebonack at the top of the list of your designs I have played to date simply because it's hard / difficult -- you fill in the appropriate word.

When you say you don't want characterizations of your work to be outlined in the fashion I have described -- that's fine -- please do likewise and understand that the idea that Ward / hard courses is the only dynamic at play is a bit elementary from your end or anyone else who is so inclined.

I simply said the course seems to encapsulate in such a total manner all the elements I have seen previously from the other courses of your portfolio I have played thus far. And that includes whatever contributions Jack provided.

Few people on this board have played as many, if not more, of your courses than I. My opinion is simply that -- mine.

I also didn't say that Jack did the bulk of the design work. In any collaboration there will be times when one idea merges to another and others previously thought of as being meaningful are then discarded for a host of reasons. To parcel out who did what and when / where / how can be a taxing exercise. I did salute the work at a very high level and clearly your name -- and the members of your team -- is front and center with such a stellar course.

I simply opined that of the courses I have played that bear your name to date -- Sebonack was the most unique from a land, routing and overall shot value perspective when compared to the others. Keep in mind I also mentioned how I see the course stacking up in the course of time and being mentioned to the same level as what Jones / Mackenzie did at Augusta. When you analyze what people write let's be sure to take the full stock of the entire statements and not simply just cherry pick a phrase or sentence because one's skin is somewhat thin because the reasoning I provide is not akin to a favorable press release.

I also believe that over the course of time Sebonack will become the new member of the troika that inhabits that special place of golf land on eastern Long Island.

Paul:

Yes, I see Sebonack as better than Pac Dunes. That may shock some but the totality of what is present on Long Island is truly something to behold and with the "new" 16th green being included the course will only become even better.

In regards to my comments on "touchy feely" I didn't mean that as a slur or putdown to the talent Tom Doak provides. However, from the dozen layouts I have played that bear his name I can honestly say his techniques have become more and more complex and go beyond the "classic look" that so many are enamored with on this site. There is shotmaking depth of a first order and Sebonack demonstrates that in a big time way.

John:

Keep in mind this -- the talented boys can handle the slot you mentioned at Stone Eagle. I am not at all claiming the finishing hole in Palm Desert is some sort of walk in the park. Far from it -- the teeth are there for those who don't execute. It's just that the sheer demands of the 2nd at Sebonack are pushed right to the edge.

The tee shot is quite vexing and the approach is akin to landing a 747 on the deck of an aircraft carrier. It's got to be an absolutely precise shot of the highest order.

Jim N:

Good to be back but allow me to throw forward this item -- I played roughly 45 holes at Sand Hills a decade ago. I have not returned since. Yes, I give the edge to Ballyneal over Sand Hills but I would need to play the Mullen layout again to see the elements others have mentioned have now been added that were not present when I first played the course.

I reserve the right to change my mind if and when I'm able to venture back to Mullen and play the C&C layout.

Yes, I really liked Ballyneal -- extremely fun and quite diverse in a number of ways. However, Sebonack takes the dimensions you see at Holyoke and goes a good ways beyond. There is plenty of challenge at Sebonack and any player venturing to the tips has to have his "A" game working in order to reap any potential dividends.

I also salute the collaborative effort Doak and Nicklaus did because the course does have such flexibility and the capacity to challenge without being overwhelming. When you walk the grounds at Sebonack the sheer aura of golf is indeed present -- no less than NGLA or Shinnecock Hills.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - great to have you back!

But well, prior to your exile, you hinted at it, leaned toward it, alluded to it... but never actually said it.  And what I mean is this:

Yes, I give the edge to Ballyneal over Sand Hills...

It is nice to FINALLY have it in writing.

 

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