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Phil Benedict

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How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« on: December 22, 2006, 04:28:58 PM »
The only time I intentionally approach a green along the ground is on recovery shots, typically when I have to bring the ball in low to keep it under trees.  A properly executed shot under these circumstances is extremely rewarding, but the fact is I almost always fly the ball all the way to the green when I am in the fairway.  This is partly due to my limited skill in controlling trajectory; the fact that most of my home course's greens are elevated; or because I think that the aerial approach is inherently more predictable.  The other factor is that the firm and fast conditions which favor bounce are hard to sustain on most golf courses, including mine.  Whatever the reason, the ground game is not much of a factor for me.

There is such reverence about the ground game here, but I wonder how frequently it comes into play outside of links courses.
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Tom Huckaby

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 04:31:43 PM »
Phil:

I would guess that the more proficient one is with aerial wedge play, the less one uses the ground game.

Sadly I suck, so I have the ground game forced upon me.

I swear I hit more pitch shots with my 7iron that any of the wedges.

TH
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Kyle Harris

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 04:33:32 PM »
Phil,

Not to sidetrack, but I am curious as to what conditions about your course make firm and fast a difficult goal?
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Paul Payne

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 04:38:20 PM »
OK, I'm a liberal, so therefore I waffle.

I use a quasi-ground game quite often. I seem to be a pretty good ball striker but I really don't impart much backspin. Because of this I always tend to plan for some amount of run-out on the ball. Add firm fast conditions and I find that frequently I am either aiming to land my iron shots on the front of the green or somewhere before the front of the green and then let it hop and roll towards the hole.

I have gotten pretty good at this so it is one reason I am not a fan of soft fairways and greens. They cause me to not only re-think my club selection but my entire shot as well.

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Phil Benedict

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 04:49:26 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on December 22, 2006, 04:33:32 PM
Phil,

Not to sidetrack, but I am curious as to what conditions about your course make firm and fast a difficult goal?

Kyle,

The course is in the Northeast and it rains a lot in the spring.  In the summer when it's hot maintenance tends to be conservative in order to protect the turf, so the watering system gets a lot of work.  There is a trade off between keeping the grass green and keeping it firm, and green seems to prevail at most clubs.

There is a fellow who participates on this site who is the head of the greens committee at a high profile course in the mid-Atlantic region.  One of the comments he made to me at a meeting we attended (unrelated to golf) is how hard it is to sustain firm and fast conditions.  He knows it's the ideal but it's hard to do.

Is Love really something new?  The amount of original music the Beatles made (measured in hours) is incredibly small, but they sure know how to repackage it.
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Steve Burrows

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 04:50:25 PM »
Paul Payne wrote: "I have gotten pretty good at this so it is one reason I am not a fan of soft fairways and greens. They cause me to not only re-think my club selection but my entire shot as well."

Isn't this thought process as important/relevant/challenging as planning for a shot to run?  If indeed firm and fast is the "ideal," but, more often than not, the ideal does not meet the reality, then should not players also be prepared at least to visualize (which is to say THINK about), and perhaps even execute, a shot through the air?

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...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Kyle Harris

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 04:55:38 PM »
Quote from: Phil Benedict on December 22, 2006, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: Kyle Harris on December 22, 2006, 04:33:32 PM
Phil,

Not to sidetrack, but I am curious as to what conditions about your course make firm and fast a difficult goal?

Kyle,

The course is in the Northeast and it rains a lot in the spring.  In the summer when it's hot maintenance tends to be conservative in order to protect the turf, so the watering system gets a lot of work.  There is a trade off between keeping the grass green and keeping it firm, and green seems to prevail at most clubs.

There is a fellow who participates on this site who is the head of the greens committee at a high profile course in the mid-Atlantic region.  One of the comments he made to me at a meeting we attended (unrelated to golf) is how hard it is to sustain firm and fast conditions.  He knows it's the ideal but it's hard to do.

Is Love really something new?  The amount of original music the Beatles made (measured in hours) is incredibly small, but they sure know how to repackage it.

Phil,

It's actually nothing new at all. George Martin went and first off, remastered all the old stuff - so the sound is MUCH cleaner and deeper, you hear stuff you could never hear before.

He also REMIXED a lot of the stuff, so you get a lot of Beatles themes interplaying a lot. For example, the introduction to Get Back is played over the drum solo from "The End" with the George Harrison guitar ornaments from "The End" and it builds into the climax of the song.

Hey Jude is made into a medley with the reprise of Sgt. Pepper.

The instrumental coda of Strawberry Fields Forever is laced with the classical intermezzos from such songs as "In My Life" and "Piggies."

It's an extremely interesting listen.

As for your golf course, have you read Scott Anderson's feature interview?
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Matt_Cohn

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 05:03:14 PM »
I don't really "try" to play the ground game versus an aerial one. My process on, say, a 170 yard approach shot is to first figure things out assuming my normal trajectory and determine where I'd need to fly my ball to.

If that point is safe and appealing - whether it's on the green or 40 yards short - then I'm done. However, if that landing point is dangerous or ill-advised, then I'll start to consider other options including using more of a ground game approach, or trying to play to a completely different spot.

It's not a case of looking to the air first, as much as looking first to my normal, natural shot.
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JESII

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 05:11:36 PM »
The most difficult decision for me is when I think I might be able to carry a certain club to the green and have the ball stop pretty easily, but I am not sure. You then have to consider one club longer, but because it is a stronger club and you are taking a little speed (and therefore spin) off of the ball you have to carry the longer club shorter than you would the shorter club. In other words, a 170 yard shot could be a full bore 7 iron. And if I hit it just right it will carry 170 and stop pretty quick because of height and spin. If I don't think I can pull off the 7 iron, I would have to hit a 6 iron. The trick is the 6 iron needs to carry about 160 because it will be lower and have less spin.

Either a 170 yard 7 iron or a 160 yard 6 iron...counter intuitive isn't it...the rub for those of you that don't believe there is much enhanced value strategically to firm up a course...this problem only arises when it's a bit firm. Otherwise it's just a little 6 iron that carries 170 yards...
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Michael Dugger

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 06:19:40 PM »
The simple answer is as often as possible.  It depends upon turf conditions, however.  It also depends upon the pin position.

And it depends upon whether or not I feeling like I am more accurate that day with a 8 iron from 135 or a knock down something.  On far too many occasions my iron game with vanish and I have a better chance getting it close hitting a half shot and focusing on making solid contact.  
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Paul Payne

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 06:48:39 PM »
Steve,

Uh... the answer would be yes of course, or as my daughter would say, Duh.

I have just gotten to where I prefer this set up. The obvious next best shot for me is an aerial shot into a soft green. This is because I can make the ball stay put even with little backspin. The shot I would probably struggle the most with is a forced aerial shot into a firm green, just because the lack of sticking power.

This doesn;t mean I don't enjoy the challenge. The question was "how often do you use the ground game on an approach shot". my answer was frequently.

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Adam Clayman

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 07:11:27 PM »
For this scenario lets just throw out every course where the surface is soft.

Most of the challenge, on a properly maintained surface, is to figureout the firmness as soon as possible. Why? So one can use the right side of their brain to play creatively using the ground.

I can clearly remember, back before the irrigation system became standard, the goal was to keep the ball as close to the ground as possible as often as possible, because it was safer and more controlable.

This new breed, when confronted with a task, that use to be rote, is lost when forced to use a lower trajectory shot. This is sad on several fronts, most importantly though, is the loss of satisfaction derived from over coming the challenge of figuring the thump. Stock 7 thru wedge yardage hitters do not know what they're missing, due to the inherent ease in this repetitive approach. It's another example of the myth of making things harder when in reality they are easier. Stroking the ego inorder to achieve repeat business.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 07:13:07 PM by Adam Clayman »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2006, 07:45:00 PM »
Yes.. ::)

And here's a quote from a real sucker. Can you guess who?

Quote
I always believe in golf should have open front.  You should be able to utilize the ground and don't take away the short game.  I play golf courses on Tour and we all see it, miss the green, automatic lobwedge, hack it out of the rough.  That to me is not fun golf.  Fun golf is Pinehurst.  Fun golf is playing links golf.  Fun golf is learning to how to maneuver the ball on the ground and give yourself options.  One of the hardest up and downs is when you have options.  You have so many different ways to play and you see a lot of pros really mess up easy shots because they have so many different options.  I think that's taken away from the game of golf now, and ridiculous at how the modern golf courses are designed, that's how they are designed is they have taken that option away and that's too bad.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Gary Slatter

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2006, 07:55:54 PM »
It's already been said, "as often as possible".  Prefer along the ground and related fun shots..
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Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2006, 08:27:07 PM »
Adam,

Can you remember one time that guy hit the ball along the ground without needing to?

Considering just about everyone of his shots are covered it should be easy enough...
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Mike_Cirba

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2006, 08:56:29 PM »
Gentlemen,

I believe we all might be missing the point about architecture permitting the ground game.

It's rarely to accommodate long hitting, high-spinning players like Tiger Woods, or even Jim Sullivan, although it does give them that option as well should they need it for ultra-firm greens or needing the keep the ball down for a variety of reasons (i.e., wind, trees).

What the ground game is really all about, however, is accommodating the play of the weaker man, the senior, the high-handicapper.   It's about the guy who is hitting a low-running 3-wood into a 400 yard par four, and if he hits his best shot he has a chance at par.

It's about the 70 year old who is probably hitting driver on the 180 yard par three.   It's about giving those guys and gals a shot and making the course playable for everyone.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2006, 09:14:04 PM »
Mike:

Thank you for saving me the trouble.

Phil:

Call me back in 20 years when you are hitting it not so long, and tell me you like it when your ball plugs after every shot and you have no chance of holding greens with your 4-wood approaches.  The best part of all is, leaving a ground game option for the future you doesn't cost the present you anything at all.
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Phil Benedict

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2006, 09:18:07 PM »
Mike,  

Never thought of it that way.  Great post.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2006, 09:18:37 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 22, 2006, 09:14:04 PM
Mike:

Thank you for saving me the trouble.

Phil:

Call me back in 20 years when you are hitting it not so long, and tell me you like it when your ball plugs after every shot and you have no chance of holding greens with your 4-wood approaches.  The best part of all is, leaving a ground game option for the future you doesn't cost the present you anything at all.

Tom,

Thanks...

Years of playing with my dad as he got older and more frail taught me that lesson.  

It's amazing how people tend to judge architecture based solely on their own games, or worse yet, on the games of the touring professionals.  

Thanks for remembering the rest of us.

Phil,

Thanks...sometimes it was a painful lesson to watch/learn, but we'll all hopefully get there someday.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 09:20:24 PM by Mike Cirba »
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Eric Pevoto

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2006, 09:34:56 PM »
I completely agree with Cirba's post.  Also, as Jerry, er, I mean Jim Sullivan :) alludes to, it's about making the better player (any player, for that matter) commit to the shot.  It makes it more interesting for all.

Now, how often do I approach the green from the ground?  Only when I have to, which isn't much these days.
   
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There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

JESII

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2006, 10:01:26 PM »
Quote from: Eric Pevoto on December 22, 2006, 09:34:56 PM
Also, as Jerry, er, I mean Jim Sullivan :) alludes to,    

Priceless, absolutely perfect!!

It seems that the only other person that would get that is not around anymore.



TomD and MikeC,

Is there an effective means to permit "making the course playable for everyone" without diminishing the challenge for scratch players?

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Mike_Cirba

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2006, 10:12:42 PM »
Eric,

Great to hear from you!  Your humor is missed here.  

Give me a holler one of these days.

Jim,

Do you think Hidden Creek challenges the scratch player?

It's the only point of reference where we've played together, but HC certainly accommodates the ground game well, doncha think?

Frankly, in my opinion, I'd like to see the approach shots offer a little more in the way of some white-knuckle shots, but it still doesn't give up birdies without some careful thought and execution.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2006, 09:37:18 AM »
JES:  There will always be some scratch players who insist upon a relentless test of golf which punishes them anytime they fail to make what they consider the proper aerial shot.  A course of that ilk will never be enjoyable for the 15-handicap even if he plays it from 6000 yards.

To me the problem is one of perception.  That scratch player's poor aerial shot probably isn't going to wind up on the green; if it hits short it'll probably stay short because he has backspin on it.  He's probably going to make par or bogey ... the same as if he missed in a greenside bunker, but in the latter case he can blame it on the bunker instead of on his lack of recovery skills.

Some players just want penalties to be direct and absolute (one full shot), instead of incremental penalties that don't always result in the loss of a hole.  But if every missed shot is going to result in the loss of another stroke, that is exactly the kind of of course no 15-handicap is going to enjoy.
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Kyle Harris

Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2006, 09:38:41 AM »
Wow, you guys are taking this no cart thing seriously. I approach all my greens on the ground since I can't really afford to have a helicopter take me between shots.
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Donnie Beck

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Re:How often do you approach the green from the ground?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2006, 10:07:38 AM »
If you play golf with Pioppi it is mandatory to hit at least three 4 irons from 150 per round or you can forget about getting another invite.  ;D
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