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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« on: December 19, 2006, 07:26:26 PM »
White sand has an angle of repose of about 32 degrees.  

And in case you were wondering, the angle of repose for brown rice is 41 degrees.

What effect would incorporating material with a greater angle of repose in bunkers have on bunkers' efficacy as hazards?  

Do you think GCA's would build deeper or more shallow bunkers or vary the location and shape of bunkers with more cohesive materials than sand?  

Is there extant material that could be used instead of sand that would work on both functional and aesthetic levels?  

What effect, if any, would these new bunkers have on the performance of professional golfers?  

Recreational golfers?  

Is there any gca at present who builds bunkers that even Ernie Els hopes to avoid?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2006, 07:38:17 PM »
James:

We are starting to do planning work on a course for the PGA Tour and I believe the most important aspect of it will be to get the bunkers right -- to build bunkers that they must respect.  It will be something of a departure for us to make them small and nasty and not so picturesque but I think it's the only way.

Don't think the Tour or the client will go for brown rice, though.
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Andy Doyle

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2006, 07:44:29 PM »
White rice?
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2006, 07:50:32 PM »
I don't think they care what the angle of repose of sand is at Hoylake.  ;D
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2006, 08:03:48 PM »
Quote from: Andy Doyle on December 19, 2006, 07:44:29 PM
White rice?

Andy, white rice has an angle of repose of 40 degrees, less than brown.  Sorry, Dude.  

Tom, are you borrowing Jack's rakes?  I wholeheartedly support that decision.  

When you say small, nasty bunkers, do they have revetted faces?

Garland, touche'.  But do you think so?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 08:06:58 PM by James Morgan »
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Andy Doyle

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 08:54:42 PM »
Another beer and my angle of repose is about to be zero degrees.

I was also intrigued by Tom's comments about the course for the PGA Tour.  Other than getting the bunkers right, what might you do differently than the standard 15 yard wide fairways and deep rough to challenge these guys?

Andy
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TEPaul

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 09:18:05 PM »
What an interesting question.

In my opinion, there're about a dozen different directions from which to come at this overall question of the "playability" of sand surfaces.

One way I'd like to see some courses experiment with is to just make the sand surfaces of their bunkers at least five times more compacted---something like a sandy road?

You want to separate the men from the boys in bunker recovery? That would really do it. ;)

If a lot of golf courses started to do that equipment would quickly follow. SWs would be produced with very little bounce---they'd have flanges like knives and that would really isolate and highlight skill.

YEEEOOW!!! It might even help get more golfers to avoid bunkers at all costs.

YEEEOOOWEEEEEEE!
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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 09:24:41 PM »
I think there are different white sands that would have a different angle of repose based on whther they are anglar or round.  Would this be correct?
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 09:32:28 PM »
Several years ago Kona Country Club had bunkers with large grains almost like a light gravel.Only had a couple of chances but seems like there was some guessing as to how much spin any given shot would have.Not sure if they still have these.
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2006, 09:32:41 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on December 19, 2006, 09:24:41 PM
I think there are different white sands that would have a different angle of repose based on whther they are anglar or round.  Would this be correct?

Mike, you are probably correct, although I think the difference in angular and round is by only a few degrees.  
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Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2006, 09:34:26 PM »
white sticky rice.
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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

TEPaul

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2006, 09:35:12 PM »
What an interesting question.

In my opinion, there're about a dozen different directions from which to come at this overall question of the "playability" of bunkering and the actual sand surfaces are only about half of them. The other half is the architecture.

One way I'd like to see some courses experiment with sand surfaces is to just make the sand surfaces of their bunkers at least five times more compacted---something like a sandy road?

You want to separate the men from the boys in bunker recovery? That would really do it. ;)

If a lot of golf courses started to do that equipment would quickly follow. SWs would be produced with very little bounce---they'd have flanges like knives and that would really isolate and highlight skill.

EEEYAWH!!! It might even help get more golfers to avoid bunkers at all costs.

EEEYAWHEEEEEEE!
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TEPaul

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2006, 09:36:44 PM »
James:

Do you have any idea what the angle of repose is of the finest Columbian cocaine?

I'd say probably pretty close to about six degrees of separation.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 09:38:14 PM by TEPaul »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 09:45:23 PM »
There was a Mike Stranz bunker, maybe #17 at True Blue, that somehow had an angle of repose of about 75 degrees.  I have no idea how they kept sand up on that steep bank right above the lake.  There was a "beach" at the bottom and then the steep bank.  We saw one shot actually plug in and stay in the bank.

OT - "Angle of Repose" is one hell of a novel of the American West from early 20th Century on by Wallace Stegner.  No golf but well worth the reading.
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2006, 09:48:25 PM »
Oh, boy.  I am the author of the thread by which Tom Paul gets expelled from GCA.com
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2006, 09:52:42 PM »
meow
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2006, 09:58:59 PM »
No, Paul... I was serious about that... Ran lives in North Carolina.
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2006, 10:03:17 PM »
gimme five :)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2006, 10:13:40 PM »
Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on December 19, 2006, 09:34:26 PM
white sticky rice.

Nuzzo, you're the engineer on this site, no excuses for you, Pal.  Out of the box.
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2006, 10:22:23 PM »
High five back at you, Paul.  Give my regards to Davis.  
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2006, 10:31:00 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 19, 2006, 07:38:17 PM
James:

We are starting to do planning work on a course for the PGA Tour and I believe the most important aspect of it will be to get the bunkers right -- to build bunkers that they must respect.  It will be something of a departure for us to make them small and nasty and not so picturesque but I think it's the only way.

Don't think the Tour or the client will go for brown rice, though.

Tom Doak,

Isn't depth combined with a steep faced front wall, placed near a critical location in the LZ, the only configuration that PGA Tour Players will respect and/or fear ?

Bunker out of play = no fear
Bunker benign = no fear

Deep, Steep, in play bunker = Danger Will Robinson  
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2006, 05:25:28 AM »
'' Isn't depth combined with a steep faced front wall, placed near a critical location in the LZ, the only configuration that PGA Tour Players will respect and/or fear ? ''

....almost....you forgot one ingredient.

Combine the above with a flat sand bunker floor.
Don't give them an easier out by letting them use an up slope as a tool. Deep with flat sand commands more respect.  
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2006, 05:39:05 AM »
The tenth at Calusa Pines has a bunker/waste face on the right side of the green that approaches vertical.  It's probably not even sand that high up.  I haven't any idea how they maintain it.

JC
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2006, 05:55:13 AM »
Tom D said ''We are starting to do planning work on a course for the PGA Tour......''
I think that's great Tom. I know that's another hill you've  been anxious to climb and I am excited to see what ya'll come up with.

I think designing holes that test the elite players skills without killing the rest of the golfing populace is the biggest challenge....and is something you have done well in the past. Balancing the two is tough.

Or you could just say screw it, I'm gonna give them a man sized course that will bring them to their knees if they err...a true test of their skills.

I think the former is much more difficult than the latter.

Wil this new course have any mandates along these lines?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 06:14:56 AM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Angle of Repose, or Brown Rice
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2006, 06:25:50 AM »
One of my business clients produces a recycled glass 'sand'.  It can be used in building or as I've seen as bunker sand.  A local 'pasture golf' course where my friend has family membership has used it.  It must be cheap, it is sustainable and according to the MD there are no safety issues that you don't get with natural sand (which after all is the raw material for glass?).

http://www.daygroup.co.uk/pics/Ecosand.pdf

It looks a little odd on the course. It's a whitish green and almost luminescent.  It's also very free draining.  You can just see a bunker from the M25 if you are traveling anticlockwise towards the M11 junction it’s on the hill on the north east of the junction.  The course (Epping GC) is fun in a basic way and they've only had bunkers about two years.  However the placement of these is so inept that I've yet to find one so I can't report as to playability.
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Let's make GCA grate again!
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