"World Class" Courses w/ Indifferent Par 5s

« **on:** December 14, 2006, 10:57:30 PM »

Gentlemen,

I have been reflecting on sept play at R. Portrush, a top ranked (10) course of the British Isles. While the three shot second is a fine hole I have trouble getting excited over the two par fives at the turn. Nine has some some line of charm but ten is a fairly straightforward two shot/pitch up the pike hole and seventeen really only has the Big Nelly bunker which, while formidable , is easily avoidable.

Which other highly ranked courses suffer weak par fives yet overcome that flaw and what does that say about the importance of doing the job with the other holes if one desires a "great" layout?

« **Reply #1 on:** December 14, 2006, 11:05:03 PM »

Ward,
I find it hard to understand how so many find Royal Portrush to be a top 10 course.
Not only were the par fives lacking, many of the other holes were IMHO very mundane.
Can you explain to me what I might have missed?

In response to your post I'd nominate CPC and Seminole. With today's ball there aren't many par fives left for the long hitter.

« **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2006, 11:15:07 PM »

Bandon Dunes
Pacific Dunes
and even to an extent
Bandon Trails

I think my single biggest disappointment with the Bandon Dunes resort is the lack of a truly great par 5 commensurate with the quality of the other holes. 3 at Trails, IMO, is the best of the lot, and 16 at Trails is probably most memorable (though memorability does not = quality necessarily).

« **Reply #3 on:** December 14, 2006, 11:49:00 PM »

Ryan,

I'd really pull Pac Dunes out of that list, and 13 at Bandon changes every time I've played it.

« **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:08:05 AM »

#8 at Inverness
#7 and #15 at Muirfield Village
#10 at NCR
#7 Bethpage (regular play)

« **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:21:11 AM »

Ward,

This is a charge that is routinely levelled at Ballybunion Old, especially in regard to the back to back par-fives on the front, #4 and #5. I think they're the prime reason why Ballybunion's detractors say they feel "let down" by the front side.

I disagree. There was another thread here recently discussing tension in the routing of a golf course. To me, tension suggests build-up and release, flat spots, longueurs. Ran writes in his review of Royal County Down that the back nine suffers only in direct comparison to the front; I feel the inverse is true at Ballybunion.

Hope to double back to this thread tomorrow, but it's past midnight-- I've got to crash....

« **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:36:17 AM »

Jeff,

How does 13 at Bandon change every time you play it? It's a bland par 5 with a ho-hum tee shot and a dive to the left that the first time player won't even know about until he gets down there because he's too busy aiming for the 17th green.

If you mean the wind gives it different playing characteristics, the same can be said about 10,000 other par 5s around the world.

Regarding Pacific, why should it be taken off my list? Pacific Dunes has absolutely world class par 4s, some pretty darn good par 3s, and a set of par 5s that, quite frankly, had they been part of a Portland muni probably wouldn't get mentioned as the best holes on said golf course.

Are they BAD holes? No they aren't. Are they indifferent, as the thread has asked? I sure think so. 3 seems like it's main purpose is to get you to the water, 12 seems like it's meant to get you to the 13th tee (though I do really like the second shot there with a long iron/fairway wood when going for it in 2...probably my favorite shot any par 5 at PD offers, 15 to me is just filler with, if nothing else, a unique shot uphill to the green, and 18 is just fine, with my favorite thing (for the sake of fun, not score) trying to get at the front left pin.

Do you really think the par 5s at Pacific Dunes or any of the Bandon resort courses are "World Class"?

« **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2006, 01:21:51 AM »

Myopia Hunt Club is one of my very favorite courses but I think it's par 5's are it's weak point. It's par 3's and 4's are so good that they do a good job of making up for the 5's, but I think they hold Myopia back from being in the truly elite.

« **Reply #8 on:** December 15, 2006, 02:12:25 AM »

Ryan,

Agree with you on the 2nd at 12. On 12, 3, and 15 I could see a want for more fairway character, but it would be artificial to the plain they sit in.

I think the approach at 3 is tremendous and puts a lot of pressure on the second.

Not sure which Portland muni courses your thinking of?

« **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2006, 02:42:28 AM »

Quote from: Ryan Simper on December 15, 2006, 12:36:17 AM

Regarding Pacific, why should it be taken off my list? Pacific Dunes has absolutely world class par 4s, some pretty darn good par 3s, and a set of par 5s that, quite frankly, had they been part of a Portland muni probably wouldn't get mentioned as the best holes on said golf course.

Do you really think the par 5s at Pacific Dunes or any of the Bandon resort courses are "World Class"?

Ryan,

I think you were spending more time ducking the hail than noticing the architecture of the 18th hole at Pacific. I think the 18th is freaking awesome, definately world class. Granted the 12th is a filler hole and #15 is slightly above average for the course. But #3 is damn good and 18 is epic.

« **Reply #10 on:** December 15, 2006, 02:59:25 AM »

I agree with my college teammate....the 18th at Pacific is too contrived and left a bad taste in my mouth about the course. Not to say that I didn't enjoy the course or that it isn't one of my favorites, but the 18th was not a believable naturally-created hole.

I admit I've only played the course once and had a bad taste in my mouth partly because I was trying to salvage a decent score on the 18th.

« **Reply #11 on:** December 15, 2006, 04:32:37 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on December 15, 2006, 02:44:02 AM

Of the courses I really rate as top of the heap I would say Sandwich has par 5s which are fairly good, but not up to the class of the course as a whole. North Berwick doesn't have the best of 5s either, though I do like Bos'ns Locker a lot. #8 should be a par 4 for both tees. #9 has an interesting drive because of the centerline bunkers, but it somehow doesn't quite pull off being a really good hole. As a set they are a bit wanting. Burnham & Berrow's aren't all that great with the exception of the 13th which is one of the very best short par 5s I know of (except they filled in the bridal path!). #s4 & 8 make the best of bad situations. Not bad holes, but nothing to look forward to. However, opening the old Fowler 1910 tee again on #8 is an improvement.

The only course I can think of my top echelon with a good set of par 5s is Pennard. In truth, they are more interesting than great because of the variety of styles.

Ciao

Sean,

Sandwich only has two par 5's. 7 is a good hole and 14 is excellent. Terrifying drive but if you steer safely left you then have trouble clearing the Suez Canal for your second. Anything from a 3 to double figures is possible on that hole.

Also, St.Enodoc has 2 par 5's and they are both fantastic - standout holes on a standout course.

Royal County Down has 3 5's. The first is absolutely magnificent. The 12th and 18th, whilst not bad are not up to the (ridiculously high) standards of the rest of the course.

Ed

« **Reply #12 on:** December 15, 2006, 10:16:57 AM »

Shooter,

I think Portrush ranks because in order:

Variety and strength of par fours

Colts use of angle vs wind( routing)

Some truly great green complexes

Setting.

I posit that you also suffered form Playing RCD just beforehand don't you?

But this issue strenghtens the notion that the design better get the two shotters and one shotters right.

Are par fives mainly of value for the chance to insert the most flashy or risk reward ie going for two and designers neglect to be sure and add more complex elements?

« **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2006, 11:49:18 AM »

Winged Foot West 5 and 12
Oakland Hills 2 and 12
Lytham 6
Turnberry 17
Olympic 1
Firestone 2
Bethpage 13 (just isn't as inspiring as no. 4)
Sawgrass 2

These immediately come to mind.

« **Reply #14 on:** December 15, 2006, 11:51:43 AM »

Peter,

Only one with which I am familiar is Turn 17. I thought it was pretty good. Not an herioc drive if I recall but the framing of the hole thereafter is pretty good isnt it and it is good match placement ie catchup hole.

« **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2006, 06:10:21 PM »

The Valley Club of Montecito is a truly fine golf course, but nobody could call the par 5s "world class."

#1 is a short, straight, Dr. MacKenzie "get away" par 5 starter. The biggest danger is being overly aggressive and hooking the tee shot behind the fence that cuts in from the left!

This is the second easiest birdie on the course.

#1 from the green back toward the clubhouse, with the par 3 14th in front of the 1st green:

#2 is not long, a hard dogleg left, 500 yards, with very attractive deep bunkers left and right in the fairway. Even from the back tee these are not hard to carry. Again, the big danger is hooking OB when the adrenaline flows. The green is tiny and very tilted back to front, so this hole is significantly more difficult than #1. Still an easy par and frequent birdie.

#10 is short but has a very awkward tee shot because the steep hillside left, mostly OB, has suffered much landsliding over the years and created a steep sidehill landing area. There is a deep barranca at 300 yards that can be reached with a long tee shot that catches the downslope. A spoon catches the side slope and winds up on a slight sidehill with an easy carry over the barranca that can get home with a solid long or mid iron. The green is wide open in front, tilted but overall this a very easy birdie, easiest on the course.

#15 is the best par 5, with a beautiful finish in front of the clubhouse. The tee shot is nothing special, gently uphill on the broad slope down from the clubhouse. Two large spectacle bunkers frame the opening to the elevated green that has two tiers, neither very large. The hole plays approximately 520 yards with lots of pars and some birdies.

The 15th green:

The strong par 4s and a great set of par 3s make up the strength of the Valley Club, together with the wonderful atmosphere of the secluded valley and the great MacKenzie routing that takes maximum advantage of two creeks/barrancas that run along or across holes 2, 3, 9,10, 11, 12, and 14.

The par 3 #4 as an example of the lovely par 3s:

(photos courtesy of R. Morrisette's

« **Reply #16 on:** December 16, 2006, 09:52:25 AM »

The Pacific Dunes par fives are some of my best. If that's not good enough for some of you, that's fine, but don't single it out ... they would stand up just as well as the par fives on any U.S. Open course except Shinnecock.

« **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2006, 10:47:50 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on December 15, 2006, 07:35:16 PM

Quote from: Ed Tilley on December 15, 2006, 04:32:37 AM
Quote from: Sean Arble on December 15, 2006, 02:44:02 AM
Of the courses I really rate as top of the heap I would say Sandwich has par 5s which are fairly good, but not up to the class of the course as a whole. North Berwick doesn't have the best of 5s either, though I do like Bos'ns Locker a lot. #8 should be a par 4 for both tees. #9 has an interesting drive because of the centerline bunkers, but it somehow doesn't quite pull off being a really good hole. As a set they are a bit wanting. Burnham & Berrow's aren't all that great with the exception of the 13th which is one of the very best short par 5s I know of (except they filled in the bridal path!). #s4 & 8 make the best of bad situations. Not bad holes, but nothing to look forward to. However, opening the old Fowler 1910 tee again on #8 is an improvement.

The only course I can think of my top echelon with a good set of par 5s is Pennard. In truth, they are more interesting than great because of the variety of styles.

Ciao

Sean,

Sandwich only has two par 5's. 7 is a good hole and 14 is excellent. Terrifying drive but if you steer safely left you then have trouble clearing the Suez Canal for your second. Anything from a 3 to double figures is possible on that hole.

Also, St.Enodoc has 2 par 5's and they are both fantastic - standout holes on a standout course.

Royal County Down has 3 5's. The first is absolutely magnificent. The 12th and 18th, whilst not bad are not up to the (ridiculously high) standards of the rest of the course.

Ed

Sorry Ed, I disagree. The 5s at Sandwich are pretty good, but nothing outstanding - especially given that Sandwich is an Open course. They certainly are not the holes I think of as the best. I do like the drive for #7 and the approach for #14. When I think of an outstanding set of 5s I use Cruden Bay as the measuring stick.

BTW If you are struggling to clear the Suez in two it is time for a lesson! From the tips it is about 330 yards to reach the Suez and from the daily markers it can't be more than 290ish yards. There has to be a VERY strong wind for Suez to threaten a second shot assuming a decent player hits a decent drive. In fact, I would say that for single markers the Suez is a danger off the tee.

BTW II I too like St. Enodoc's par 5s that is why I didn't mention them.

Ciao

The Suez is a problem if you hit your drive into the rough on the left, which as I found out can be pretty severe. I imagine that rough gets its fair share of balls given the OOB on the right. Granted I think the Suez canal would be more effective if it was 70 or so yards further on but that's never going to happen.

I only disagreed with you as the title of this thread asks for 'indifferent' par 5's and I don't think either 7, or particularly 14, at RSG are indifferent holes.

The reason I mentioned St. Enodoc is that you said only Pennard from your top echelon has a good set of 5's. I know that St. Enodoc is in your top echelon and I think it's 2 par 5's are both superb.

Ed

« **Reply #18 on:** December 16, 2006, 11:11:30 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on December 15, 2006, 02:44:02 AM

Of the courses I really rate as top of the heap I would say Sandwich has par 5s which are fairly good, but not up to the class of the course as a whole. North Berwick doesn't have the best of 5s either, though I do like Bos'ns Locker a lot. #8 should be a par 4 for both tees. #9 has an interesting drive because of the centerline bunkers, but it somehow doesn't quite pull off being a really good hole. As a set they are a bit wanting. Burnham & Berrow's aren't all that great with the exception of the 13th which is one of the very best short par 5s I know of (except they filled in the bridal path!). #s4 & 8 make the best of bad situations. Not bad holes, but nothing to look forward to. However, opening the old Fowler 1910 tee again on #8 is an improvement.

The only course I can think of my top echelon with a good set of par 5s is Pennard. In truth, they are more interesting than great because of the variety of styles.

Ciao

I really like 4 at Burnham Sean, the safe left line v the scrubland right but shorter route, and the plateau green, is the hole bunkerless as well. 8 i agree is better from the rightside tee, 13 I think is better with the path fill in, that was a real nuisance with the wrong wind, the 13th is a fairly new hole do you remember the old 12th, it roughy went from current 12th tee and ran like the 11th about 30 yards from the road with the green just to left of the church. On sundays when the church was busy there was an alternative green. This was a great hole.

« **Reply #19 on:** December 16, 2006, 12:13:40 PM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on December 16, 2006, 11:47:43 AM

Quote from: Adrian_Stiff on December 16, 2006, 11:11:30 AM
Quote from: Sean Arble on December 15, 2006, 02:44:02 AM
Of the courses I really rate as top of the heap I would say Sandwich has par 5s which are fairly good, but not up to the class of the course as a whole. North Berwick doesn't have the best of 5s either, though I do like Bos'ns Locker a lot. #8 should be a par 4 for both tees. #9 has an interesting drive because of the centerline bunkers, but it somehow doesn't quite pull off being a really good hole. As a set they are a bit wanting. Burnham & Berrow's aren't all that great with the exception of the 13th which is one of the very best short par 5s I know of (except they filled in the bridal path!). #s4 & 8 make the best of bad situations. Not bad holes, but nothing to look forward to. However, opening the old Fowler 1910 tee again on #8 is an improvement.

The only course I can think of my top echelon with a good set of par 5s is Pennard. In truth, they are more interesting than great because of the variety of styles.

Ciao
I really like 4 at Burnham Sean, the safe left line v the scrubland right but shorter route, and the plateau green, is the hole bunkerless as well. 8 i agree is better from the rightside tee, 13 I think is better with the path fill in, that was a real nuisance with the wrong wind, the 13th is a fairly new hole do you remember the old 12th, it roughy went from current 12th tee and ran like the 11th about 30 yards from the road with the green just to left of the church. On sundays when the church was busy there was an alternative green. This was a great hole.

Adrian

I never played the old 12th, but I am quite happy with the new 12th! It is a great hole.

If memory serves me correctly, I think Pennick designed the 13th in 1978. I have a question, was the green at one time further forward by the lone fairway bunker about 50 yards short of the green? I think the 13th was better with the sunken bridal path because you really had to decide if you were going to try and carry it or lay up. As you know, if you carried the path it was an iron home and if you layed up it was a blind long 3- wood which really meant a layup 2nd - no easy shot! Now there is no decision. While the tee shot is not easy now, it is far easier to bang away with a driver and trust to getting a decent lie. For me, the drive is half spoiled, still, it is a very good par 5.

I like the 4th, but think the club has made the hole too easy by cutting so much of the crap down the right. It is now possible to miss a shot going for the big drive, find your ball and often still have a shot for the green in two. They have essentially taken the risk element away from the tee shot. Though the long approach is very good and I always applaud an archie restraining himself from inserting bunkers when the terrain does the job of challenging the player. I love the "dead" ground just short of the green. Loads of people are caught out by this. Still, they need to regrow the junk down the right to give this very reachable par 5 some bite.

You are right. The 8th is a better hole from the right tee and it also distinguishes itself better from the 7th by altering the driving angle.

No matter how I look at Burnham it always comes out as a great course in my view.

Ed

On reflection, perhaps you are correct. I do not look forward to playing the 5s at Sandwich, but with a blind drive and the Suez, they couldn't be called indifferent.

Ciao

I did not know they have altered the right side of 4, that does kinda ruin it I suppose. I first played burnham in 1975, the course then went 1-2-3-4-5 as is but you walked offto the right of the 5th green and up to the 6th tee, the old 6th was magnificient, partly blind if you hit your tee shot in the wrong place, there were some interesting gullys too and a throw off left infront of the green as i remember it was 440.then 7-8-9-10-11 were as current, 12 was then the short par 5 church hole, a bit like 11 but with more charcter aroundthe green, 13 you walked off to the right and played a holea bit like the 4th, off a high tee doglegging sharp right over a ditchy gulley with bank, the green had a beautiful backdrop of leylandii (i think you can still see these but they are in someones garden now) 14 was a short hole but was played in a reverse direction almost 180 degrees to what it is know, it was a 3 iron uphill to a plateau green,then 15 etc as is. more recent changes have been the new 6th which has been extended a few times and more recently the green complex, No greens have been altered from their positions in the last 30 years or so and I dont even remember any new bunkering. back tees have been added at the 6th, 7th, 8th which as you say is more of a restore, 13 has been lengthened and they have used a 480 yard tee at 15 on occasions.
I have a couple of thoughts on Burnham to 'strengthen it'.
a: new third green behind the present one, taking it outside the hollow to a natural plateau behind, it would add maybe 50 yards, hve you ever noticed this area? b: championship tee at the 5th, so it plays 190 c: championship tee on10 ..go back 30 yards d: championship tee on 11 to the right of the 10th green, would add 30 yards and more tricky line. Any thoughts?

« **Reply #20 on:** December 16, 2006, 02:15:46 PM »

First image post - hope it works!

Landscape of 3 and 12 at Pacific Dunes - pretty fine holes if you ask me...

« **Reply #21 on:** December 16, 2006, 02:18:31 PM »

Here are some of my pics of 15 and 18.

I always loved this image of my friend Dan at the end of another wonderful day at Pacific.

« **Reply #22 on:** December 16, 2006, 02:19:33 PM »

Sean
I can see your reasons for not changing the 3rd, it is nice and cute where it is. Burnham is the nearest championship course to me and there has always been the 'could it hold the Open' question to us locals. Of course for that it would need to get near to 7000 yards and probably be a 70 par. Even if the other infrastructure is there its not easy to get B & B up to this length, mainly because i think the 1st would need to be shortened to accomadate stands, so yes some of my tee extensions were merely very back tees....but back tees at 4 or 5 holes could really stiffen this course up and i agree with you about the left side of 16 does look a bit of a kharzi, 16 could be better with a rework, the whole in from the right is a bit of a mess and the green might be outside normal limits of fairness.
When the course was reworked as you know the 12th used a simalar tee and drive alligned more up the hill then into the new green. Then 78-c92 the 13th was a short 5, probably 480. I know ive hit a 9 iron second there and also played it where you cant make the gulley. I think they have put the tee back 30 yards in the last 10 years but ive not seen the new one my last round at burnham would have been 1992.
The 14th rework involved the building of a new green on the original site of the old one, the old 14th tee was immediately left of the 15th fairway but woud have been on land that now may be houses or certainly close to it. From the tee you saw half the flagstick. I only ever played the hole in a weekend 72 hole competition and I do not remember the bunkering, but I do remember it was as tough /tougher hole than 17,and def remember it was from the opposite direction, and what you need to remember pre 78 was after the church 12th a further par 4 13th of about 400 yards went roughly the same direction as 12 and 15. There was quite a walk maybe 100 yards from the church green to the old 13th tee. It may be that the old 13th tee is still there behind the church somewhere, you probably will find the leylandii 9they wil be in someones garden) and they were immediatey behind the old 13th green. All in all I think B&B is better for the 78 changes, the old 6th was marginally better than todays although the new 6th is more visible and my opinion may be a minority one. 12 & 13 are better and 13 is a stand out hole. I think 14 could be better, I would have liked a thin fairway toward the right half of the green that offered an option.

« **Reply #23 on:** December 16, 2006, 03:30:27 PM »

One could certainly argue that the two par-5's at Royal Dornoch (#9 & #12) are among the weakest/least interesting holes on the course. They are both on the short side and, unless there are played into a strong headwind, are very reachable in two for the top amateur players.

In general, I find the par 5's on many of the links courses I have played to be the least interesting holes on those courses. I cannot say why that is. Of the links par-5's I know well, #4 at Golspie could be the best.

I wonder if the introduction of a water hazard (either a lake or stream) provides the spice that can make a par-5 memorable. Certainly #13 & #15 at Augusta National illustrate that point.

« **Reply #24 on:** December 16, 2006, 05:46:31 PM »

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