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Jerry Kluger

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The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« on: December 14, 2006, 02:36:24 PM »
I was reading one of the articles about Sebonack and the owner, Michael Pascucci, explained that the original design for the 18th hole was a long and difficult par 4.  He felt that the members would not enjoy a finishing hole that they would most often bogey or double bogey.  So they changed it to a long par 5 which would give them a better chance for par and leave on a positive note.  My question is whether a top notch course being designed today needs to have a really difficult finishing hole in judging the overall quality of the course? Myself, I agree with the owner and the 18th should not be a hole that regularly beats up the members.

Matthew Hunt

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 02:40:27 PM »
I think Par 5s are the best finishing hole.

IMO a Par 4,3,5 finishisthe best

Mark Chaplin

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 02:50:23 PM »
The 18th should be an exciting hole, but no, beating up the members doesn't have to be a qualification. I think too many owners require ultra tough holes forgetting as always the 1 tourney a year or occasional event doesn't pay the fees or attract members/fee payers.

Even short par 4s ala Prestwick & North Berwick can be exciting.
Cave Nil Vino

ed_getka

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 02:50:52 PM »
Par should be well-earned IMO. It can be par 3, 4, or 5.

Matthew,
    You are the future architect right? Why is a 4,3,5 finish best?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 02:51:02 PM »
One of the primary reasons I left my former club, a Palmer design, was the extreme difficulty of the 18th hole. Here is the description from the website:

Black     |    Blue     |    White     |    Yellow     |    Red
465 yds    452 yds         438 yds    | 390 yds    |    376 yds

~ The King, Par 4 (Red Tees Par 5): A great par 4, which demands two excellent shots to reach a large sloping green. Woods right and out of bounds left guard the fairway which runs smack into more wetlands 280 yards off the back tee. Your long iron approach must be played over the wetlands.





There are rarely any ball marks on this green. 5 is a good score and 6 and 7 are more common. This hole can ruin a decent round.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 03:28:15 PM »
Steve: I played a course down in Florida last week with an incredibly difficult 18th hole that one of the members I played with hates it so much that he avoids playing the course as much as possible - they have two others to choose from.  The hole is a very long par 4 that plays into the prevailing wind; it has water down the entire right side with a fairway that narrows more and more as the water comes into play and fronts most of the green; the green has a bunker left and is two tiered.  I hit two really good shots and was just short of the bunker - the pin was on the upper tier behind the bunker - the member said now you know why I hate this hole.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 03:40:18 PM »
Jerry

My former club was designed by Palmer to be the owner's "championship" course while another course(residential) Palmer did in the area for the owner was designed to be a "members" course. In fact, the club hosted a 2 day pro event in the early 90s and the pros didn't like the 18th because of the downhill lie on the approach shot to the elevated green. A few years ago the ownership(not the original owner) brought in Seay from Palmer Design and the project architect to review members concerns. They basically said there's nothing wrong with a difficult finishing hole. That may be true but they didn't pay big bucks to get beat up every day. In 10 years of membership, I birdied 18 once. I can understand the members dislike of the course in Florida. Luckily for him, he had 2 other courses to play. I'm guessing his club's name begins with an I.

Steve  
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2006, 03:43:22 PM »
Steve: You are correct, it does begin with an I, interestingly, they redid the greens on the course to give them more contours and make the course more interesting - to me, they did succeed.

Walt_Cutshall

Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2006, 04:40:03 PM »
Personally, I love a challenging finish. It tends to amplify differences in talent (and gives me a chance against all the mid-handicap sandbaggers who treat me like an ATM). However, I can certainly see how country club members, who tend to be getting up there in years, would not enjoy a difficult finishing sequence.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2006, 04:51:49 PM »
Nothing worse than an 18th hole, 420+ off the tee into a 2 club prevailing wind,  with a forced carry over the last 100 yards of water.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2006, 04:56:15 PM »
Cary: I think you live near a hole like that - correct?

rjsimper

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2006, 05:01:16 PM »
Funny that you mention that, Sean.  Personally, I think the worst possible 18th hole is a driveable par 4.  Yes, yes I know the 18th at TOC qualifies here and having not played the old course, I must recuse myself from any discussion of it's merits or shortcomings.

But, the short par 4 to me is ideal late in the round.  Holes 16 or 17 preferably, but not to finish the round.  The ideal 18th, if must be one extreme or the other, for me would be really difficult.  

I don't think the 10th at Riviera would be AS universally acclaimed if it were the 18th hole.  For all of the praise it gets (and richly deserves) those comments would be tempered by the group who asks if the hole is appropriate as a finisher.

And so, I think my conclusion is that the 18th on a course does not HAVE to be really hard, but I believe that it should not be really easy...and my comments pre-suppose that we are talking about par 4s only, because par 5s are a bit of a different ballgame.  

Which is a better closing hole - 10 at Riviera or 18 at Riviera?  My vote is unconditonally cast for 18.

Which is a better hole PERIOD? - 10 without question.

A short par 4 to me is the only poor way to finish a golf course...and I love short par 4s more than any other family of golf holes in the world.

If one must have an "anything can happen" hole on the last, I'd prefer a risk-reward par 5.

Jordan Wall

Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2006, 05:31:08 PM »
I think Par 5s are the best finishing hole.

IMO a Par 4,3,5 finishisthe best

Matthew,

Why do you believe this?

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2006, 06:32:44 PM »
To me, the 18th does not have to play as one of the hardest holes on a course. And it's difficult to make any blanket generalization about an 18th hole (and how I might like it to play) without benefit of the 17 previous ones. That said, I enjoy sort of a true birdie/bogey hole. One where, if you are within shot of your opponent going into that last hole, you have a drive or approach shot that, if executed properly, gives you a distinct advantage over the safe play.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2006, 07:08:05 PM »
My favorite—the 18th at the Orchards—is also one of the most difficult finishing holes I've played. The drive flirts with a stream that runs down the right and then cuts across the fairway. Staying away from the hazard leaves a long uphill second to a very tricky green. To add to the pressure, the clubhouse balcony is perched above the green, where good-natured hecklers and their pitchers of beer have caused many a 3-putt.

Andy Troeger

Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2006, 07:21:27 PM »
My preference is a relatively short par five with well-protected green that allows for a large range of scores. To me this would be exciting for anyone playing the course whether be a tournament, solo round, or a match between friends.

My biggest reason would be that this gives the players a way to win and lose a match on the final hole. It seems that with exceptionally difficult par four finishers, the hole becomes more about not trying to finish poorly than about trying to finish well.

I like the reachable but dangerous par five much better than a drivable par four because it requires two strong shots to achieve the desired results rather than one. This brings more possibilities and options into play.

jeffwarne

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 08:17:39 AM »
I absolutely don't care what the par of 18 is.

I do know some of my favorite courses end up with a short par 4. (Prestwick,St. Andrews,North Berwick, Palmetto)
It also means I usually don't have to give up a shot to my opponent ;)

but just as many end with a par 3 - (Brora, Garden City,Portrush Valley,Fortrose).  no shot there either ;D

or a par five.........

I would hope that the 18th would be dictated by the routing that allowed you to get the best 18 holes.

It would seem like Mr. Pascucci has the right idea,( wanting to leave members with a good taste in their mouth).

Seems like a good idea for a daily fee too.
I'm not nessessarily endorsing the par five idea (as I'm not sure a par five is easier for a long handicap), but the idea and spirit of a manageable hole for the membership and or daily fee base.
Always good to have them wanting to come back for more, and it's easier for the loser to swallow if he was beaten by a birdie.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »
Jerry,

In the context of the PGA Tour,
I think that's the accepted mentality of golf fans today.

So much of what's understood by the golfing fan is directly related to what they see on TV, and TV begs for drama, ergo, enter a difficult finishing hole where the drama can unfold and the outcome can change.

I think this concept will take on additional momentum vis a vis the 18th hole at WFW in this year's Open.

With 120-150 professional golfers teeing it up every week, it's highly probable the that outcome will be determined on the last hole, and as such, the viewer prefers to see excitement, and not a walk in the park.

While a birdie can win a hole, there's something more dramatic about disaster, whether it be in the form of water, OB or other hazards, the potential for a big score adds to a wild outcome.   Witness the final hole at the British Open at Carnoustie.

As such, I think the TV viewer wants to see a hole that can produce a wide scoring variance, (read agony and ecstasy)

As to the golfer, I think there's a trickle down effect.

Most match play events or matches are OVER by the time the match gets to the 18th hole, so the 18th hole's relevance in the play of a match is diminished in most cases, in fact, it's irrelevant it most cases.  Yet, from watching so much TV there's a mind set that the 18th hole should be challenging if not difficult if not diabolical.

I'm not one to buy into that thinking.

If an architect bought into that thinking, wouldn't they have to design the course with the 18th hole being the first hole to be worked on ?  To make sure that it was clearly superior in a competitive sense to those holes that come before it ?

I don't know that you'll find many really difficult or diabolical finishing holes amongst the "Golden Age" or "Classic" courses, I think you'd probably find more of them in modern designs, and that they'll become the rule rather than the exception in the future.

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 04:53:53 PM »
My favorite—the 18th at the Orchards—is also one of the most difficult finishing holes I've played. The drive flirts with a stream that runs down the right and then cuts across the fairway. Staying away from the hazard leaves a long uphill second to a very tricky green. To add to the pressure, the clubhouse balcony is perched above the green, where good-natured hecklers and their pitchers of beer have caused many a 3-putt.
Dan, I was just going to say how I hate the damned hole. But it does seperate players. I suppose in match play (or skins where I just won 5 with a par there!) it is exciting - it's just so difficult. Only the top 5% of golfers can even reach it in regulation. In medal play, I think I have to budget for a bogey there, which somehow, I don't like on the last hole. I like the idea of being able to get one back against par on the last. If the 16th and 18th were reversed (I know that's not possible) I think it would be great.

Jerry Kluger

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 05:02:53 PM »
Pat: The USGA has its own goals in setting up a course for the Open but my question was more toward what's best for a quality members' course.  I look at NGLA and its a great par 5 finishing hole that is demanding but not impossible.  The 18th at PV is also demanding but not impossible.  In both cases par is an excellent score and bogey is usually the most one will make if playing from the correct tees and don't hit it absolutely awful.  I have heard from some people that the 18th needs to be the most demanding hole on the course and I don't think that it should be there just to ruin your round.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 10:45:32 PM »
Jerry Kluger,

Your question asked: The 18th hole - Does it have to be really difficult.  And, I think I addressed the question.

Today, there's a demand for a really difficult 18th hole for each week's telecast.

Set up has very little to do with the basic architecture of the hole.

Don't view this in the limited context of the USGA, but in the context of every Sunday's broadcast of the PGA Tour.

If you're talking about clubs in general, their membership's average handicap is probably close to 14 or higher, so having a really difficult 18th holes serves little purpose, except misguided bragging rights.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2006, 10:56:53 PM »
It is hard for me to believe that wnyone would leave a club because the last hole was too hard.  
Now to answer the question.  I prefer to have a risk reward par five that might yield eagle, birdie or double.  It makes for a fun finish.  
On the PGA tour I do like to see a difficult par four that demands the leader to make par or a contender to make birdie.  How much drama has there been at 18 at The Belfry, or Sawgrass, or thte Blue Monster?  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Gary Slatter

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2006, 09:17:32 AM »
IMO the 18th should be a great looking around the 12th HDCP stroke hole.  And in the million to one chance that your course will ever be on TV make the 9th hole a very challenging finishing hole like TPC or Doral, because you know the PGA or the USGA will switch the nines anyway. When I think of the last hole of many televised events the hole can also be "easy" as this opportunity can add excitement when birdie or eagle are in the mix for the leaders (PB, TOC, Harbourtown, Seaview, TP).
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

jeffwarne

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Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2006, 09:37:18 AM »
Gary,
18 at Harbortown easy?
Have you played it?

Perhaps with the right (or no) wind the pros can make some birdies on 18 but only because "these guys are good"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th Hole - Does It Have to be Really Difficult?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2006, 04:21:04 PM »
Jeff: To most of us the second shot is very intimidating and makes it a very tough hole, to the touring pros it is simply knowing distance and wind direction.

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