I love Ross as much as the next guy, but one thing baffles me - why are there so many inquiries on this site about playing courses I've never heard of in Florida because they were designed by Donald Ross?

Without consulting Brad's book, I think you'll find 18 at New Smyrna Beach's municipal, 36 at Daytona Beach's municipal, 18 in Boca Raton somewhere, some stuff around Sarasota, and more.

There is ONE Ross course that is exceptional in our state and that is Seminole.  Timuquana is nice ONLY because it is an affulent (relative to all these low-end municipals) club and they've preserved and restored it.  Palma Ceia is similar in that it is a nice club, but the course is a real yawner - the victim of a bland site.

I asked Dr. Hurdzan a question about modern versus classic design as we stood on the (pancake-flat, barren) site of his next course in Naples.  One look at the place and it becomes obvious why architects move a lot of dirt.  And the answer isn't "because they can".  It is BECAUSE THEY NEED TO.

Ponce de Leon near St. Augustine was a better course than most of these mentioned and it doesn't exist anymore.  (I don't think.)  Donald Ross is known for excellent routings on terrific sites in Massachusetts.  He's known for the elegant use of the dominant ridge and finish culminating alongside the ocean at Seminole.  He's not known for crafting magic on tofu sites in Florida by leaving the earth undisturbed.  Nobody is.

I guess there is a notion that one may seek out and discover a unrecognized Hidden Gem.  I think the day for that is past.  Doak may have done it with Crystal Downs, but if Ross had anything at least one-tenth as good in the Sunshine State don't you think someone would have figured it out by now?

By all accounts a fun time can be had at Lake Wales.  Yet traveling to Florida to seek out Ross is like going to look for pretty girls in the locker room of an NBA team.  If that's what you want to do you'd go somewhere else.

Modern minimalists include Coore and Doak -two guys that haven't opened a course here yet.  When C&C finally does, the Sugarloaf Mountain site will stand out as being rather unique.  Ross's work was mainly contained within a few miles of the Gulf or Ocean where things are rather flat.

If you are coming to Florida my advice would be to play our Ross courses only as a historian.  If modern work isn't your thing then maybe Florida golf isn't either.

Great quote from the developer of Calusa Pines.  "I probably don't have a course that is better than Pine Valley or Shinnecock in July.  Ask me in January."  (Paraphrased, but the point holds.)

Rant over.

John,

Perhaps you have a problem with scheduling a trip around some random course Ross may or may not have done, and that's fine, I'll buy it.  But, if you were going to be in a given locale in which you'd never played, and you'd already scheduled the requisite 5-6 worthwhile courses in the area that are ranked, famous, or otherwise worth seeing, and you had a final spot or two to fill on the itinerary, as a student of architecture if given a choice between a quirky, old course done by Ross or a host of other palm tree-lined, Sawgrass wannabee, fountain-featuring Ted Robinson resort layouts, which would you choose?

And if you would choose the Ted Robinson design, would you really fault someone from this site for choosing the Ross course?

Why the fascination with Ross? Simple - he is responsible for some of the greatest and most influential designs in the history of the game.  I'd much rather include myself in an audience for a world class flautist with laryngitis, a hangover, an allergic swelling of the windpipe, and a fat lip before I go to a 9th grade music class and sit through a rank amateur struggling with a Recorder.

Brad, someone headed to Miami asked about some course in Palm Beach County I'd never heard of before.  There was a big "save Ponce" movement.  Sheesh, the guy is credited with 400 courses - many aren't wonderful today and these in Florida are certainly in that category.

Forgotten layouts that need to be remembered?  I'd try Plantation Inn and Lake Wales as well as a Quass favorite, El Campeon at the Mission Inn.  So what if it isn't a Ross - at least the site is very interesting.

I prefer classic designs.  From reports I've read the Wilmington Municipal is superior to the 54 holes in Volusia County that are also municipal Ross courses.

Looking for Hidden Gems?  Remember, I compiled the list of them here from suggestions on this site.  Ross courses came up, as did courses in Florida.  But not Ross courses in Florida.

For a Hidden Gem near World Woods shoot for Golden Hills in Ocala.  Recently Rees-stored, he inherited a wonderful routing and only had to modernize the bunkering and tee locations.  I think it is excellent.

John:

For an architect who did that volume of courses I doubt Ross was even thinking of hitting a homerun one fortieth of the time. I grew up playing Gulf Stream in Florida and it's a nice course but it's always been pretty short and small. The thing is if you look very carefully at the plans for the course and the land there it's not hard to tell that Ross used it as well as it could possibly have been used. Let's put it this way---I don't think Ross turned down a lot of projects for any reason.  

John Conley has definitely earned a place on Mike Young's
Christmas card list.

John Conley has definitely earned a place on Mike Young's
Christmas card list.

Go 'Dawgs!?

But I originally asked because I admit that I'm biased towards older classic courses too.  As Ross is probably my favorite archie of the golden era, I would get more out of a mail order Ross than a benign modern layout.

I wonder if it has something to do with knowing you are getting Ross-influenced (at least) features and quality as opposed to the fact that all the middle-tier Florida layouts seem to blend together in my mind?

Then go to Cleveland Heights, Lake Wales, and El Campeon.  There are some courses designed here by Golden Agers not named Ross that are worth seeing.  By the time you come down they should be golfing on New Smyrna Beach.

Bob,

How about Jack Nicklaus, with his signature/involvement, signature/no involvement, offspring,  associate and design service for other pros levels of service?

So Sean, which Ross courses in Florida merit a visit?

I've walked Timuquana and played Palma Ceia and CC of Orlando.  I've seen New Smyrna Beach.

Do I owe it to myself to drive an hour to Daytona Beach for 36 holes of golf by The Donald - something I haven't done in 14 years here because I've never heard anyone say one thing about the course.

If they are worth seeing I'll go see them.  Which ones do you like?

Jeff -

I don't know much about the Nicklaus organization.

I doubt, though, that they offer a stripped down, economy service the way Ross did. Basically for $2K (I've heard as much as $5K), Ross would spend a day at your property. He then mailed a routing and hole by hole construction instructions. After that you were on your own.

It was a cool system. He did filet mignon out of one door and hamburgers out of another door.

His system presupposes a demand curve for new courses that is close to vertical and a shortage of architects to serve that demand, particularly in the SE where most of his economy model courses were built.

Ross was a pretty bright guy.

Bob