[David Stamm]

Another thread prompted me to post this thread. I find it incredible how quick some are to criticize PB and then bring up the cost. While I agree it is outrageously expensive, I don't think that should have a bearing on the feelings one has about the course itself. True, you want to feel like you weren't ripped off, but honestly, who has felt ripped off after playing PB? Anyone? Tell me you don't get a rush when coming up from the South Gate through Carmel and you start getting your first glimpses of the course as you approach the visitors entrance. You get that glimpse after passing the Three Gables house of down to the 6th. Or after leaving the Lone Cypess you round the corner and head towards the Robert Louis Stevenson school and you can see up the 18th through the several hundred year old Cypress. While it's true there are some mediocre holes on the course, I think they stand out because of the spectacular holes that surround them. Not every hole can be 4-10. It always make me wonder why everyone will go out of their way to say "PB was good, but SH is just awesome!" SH is a great course, but come on, who can honestly say that it is superior. I know everyone has their opinions, but that really makes me scratch my head. IMHO, if one has to nitpick PB, than I think that person has become jaded.

"Well, if it didn't have the history....." PB didn't host it's first Open until 1972. The history doesn't have anything to do with grandeur of the course. It adds to it yes, but it would be alluring without it.

"Well, if it was taken away from it's ocean locale......." It is by the ocean! So are other famous courses. What does that have to w/ the design itself. Whether there's water at the bottom of the chasm that seperates the FW from the green on 8 or not, that ball is gone. If there wasn't water doesn't mean it wouldn't be thrilling when your approach soars over it. The ocean is what dictated where the holes were placed!


Well, I'm off my soap box. I just had to vent. I think PB is one of the greatest experiences, not just golf experience, EXPERIENCES of my life. If you've never played it, your cheating yourself of a memory that you will never forget the rest of your life. It truly is memorable. Afterall, isn't that why we play?

[Adam Clayman]

Very well ranted, David.

Pebble is even better than the course played today.

Years of flawed thinking in the GCA world, combined with a hierarchy that has lost any semblence of decency (the company) hasn't diminshed the quality of the great course that lies underneath her epidermis. Save for the new Shivas' 15th hole bunkering, of course. It sucks!

[Steve Pieracci]

David,

On a recent trip to Pacific Dunes as a single, I was paired up with folks from the southeast and Midwest.  Their comments were that PD was a bargain and "just as good" as Pebble Beach.  Yet they had never been to PB.  They were basing their experience solely on cost.  I did a poor job of convincing them otherwise, and left it as you have:  a must play.      

Experience is the key word in your post.  Until you experience PB, there are few courses that have the same beauty and allure.      

[Joel_Stewart]

Its really nit picking but most here who discuss Pebble think that it has to many holes that are not that great 1,2,12,13 to be ranked so high and that Pebble knocked off Pine Valley a few years ago still has a bad taste in peoples mouth.

Some people on this site also feel that the modernization that Palmer has done is not in the best interest of the course and other feels that the course should be restored to the way Egan set up.

Lastly are the ones who are bitter at the costs, the 6 hour rounds and one person named Tiger who doesn't like the bumpy poa greens.

With all that said, its one of the great experiences to play.  I know at least 3 members of Cypress Point who prefer Pebble to CPC and I am one as well.

[Ed Tilley]

I went to Pebble Beach on my honeymoon. The whole experience was one of the highlights of my life. I played the first tee time with 3 American guys. I didn't like the fact that I was almost expected to use a cart - when there's such beautiful scenery all around it's stupid to have your eyes on the road instead.

I'd been on a week trip to Ireland prior to my wedding and I have to say that the old quote that Monterey is the most spectacular place of land meeting sea is wrong. When you've played Tralee, Waterville, and Dooks the week before it does suffer in comparison scenically.

I thought that 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,16, and 18 were excellent and spectacular holes. I was, however, disappointed with the green surrounds - perhaps I expected it to be more linksy with run off areas and opportunity to be creative. If you missed the green, take out the lob wedge and hack out. I also thought the tree in the middle of the 18th fairway was stupid (no prizes for guessing who drove behind it!). It was clearly a top course in beautiful surrounds - there are better but not many.

The highlight was when we checked in after I'd played. We'd told them it was our honeymoon and when we arrived the receptionist said 'this is the best room we've got'. He was wrong, it was not a room but a lodge with outdoor hot tub and patio / dining area 20 yards right of the 18th fairway. Absolutely stunning. I will be eternally grateful to Pebble Beach for that gesture and I would say that everyone has to play it once - especially if you can go on your honeymoon.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I was very dissapointed when I played PB, but I think I expected just too much. There is no doubt that it does have some fantastic holes.. 7/8/9/10/18. I would say 4 and the new 5th are pretty good too ( I played the old 5th which was only so so).
Holes like 1 could be any resort in the world, 2 is not bad, 3 is not very well defined, 6 I thought was quite boring as a golf hole, 11, 12 could be any resort hole, 13 a bit better, 14 I dislike, 15 could be anywhere, 16 not bad, 17 dissapointing.
It does not have any real bad holes ofcourse, but as a 'worlds great' I think perhaps over rated.
Spyglass was more every hole was pretty good with a few 'greats' 1,2,3,5.
Pebble Beach was pure poa, tiny greens, tiny tees, I disliked the virtual monorail cart path and I three putted the last for an 80. It is ofcourse a must play.

[PThomas]

while Pebble is a great course, I think PD is a better design

[Jason Blasberg]

It always make me wonder why everyone will go out of their way to say "PB was good, but SH is just awesome!" SH is a great course, but come on, who can honestly say that it is superior. I know everyone has their opinions, but that really makes me scratch my head. IMHO, if one has to nitpick PB, than I think that person has become jaded.

David, I can't speak to Sand Hills vis-a-vis Pebble because I've not played Pebble but I can say Prairie Dunes is a better 18 hole course, better set of 18 greens and a far more enjoyable experience as it's laid back, casual, homey and world class golf all at the same time.

To nit pick over Pebble has nothing to do with being jaded it has to do with not being overwhelmed by Pebble's history and the Pacific.

I've played enough extremely good courses to feel confident in saying that Pebble is a great golf course but just not as great as most think.  

   

[Jason Blasberg]

David:

For example, my trip to Pebble was 4 years ago, 3 rounds on Pebble, 1 on Spanish in 4 days.  

This was on the way back from Maui where I played 5 rounds at the Plantation Course in 6 days.  I had a far more enjoyabe experience playing the PC, hit a far more varied set of shots, high, low, bump and run, puch and spin, flop, etc.  Save for the brillo bermuda greens at PC I would have said that it was one of my top 5 favorite courses.  Now with the new surfaced greens I can't wait to get back and if they're less grainey I have to think PC will be near my personal favorite.  

That said, it's everybit as good a course as Pebble, IMO, and it's a far more enjoyable round of golf, a far more undulating terrain, far more majestic setting, far more influenced by the wind, especially if you play one day with the Trade and the next with a Kona, far more ground game, far more thought required off the tee, etc.

My point is that there are great courses out there that lack Pebble's reputation/allure (which is very much a part of marketing) that are as good or better and get no street cred, while Pebble continues to get a free pass for its weak holes.

My suggestion, like they used to say about term vs. whole life insurance . . . play Pacific Dunes and invest the rest!!

[Jon Spaulding]

IMHO, Pebble suffers more from the "experience" factor than anywhere on the planet. The course and setting are certainly among the best in the world, yet the aftertaste can be awkward. Most (including me) bicker about price, carts, conditioning, pace of play, quality of "not as good holes", guys with cameras everywhere.....and let's not forget the silly minimum stay at one of the 2 properties to make a tee time.....

Dave, as they say, the best vote is with your feet....as I told you, in the $500 realm, Shadow Creek was a better experience, even though the course is worse!

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow.  Many issues here right up my alley, so to speak...

1.  Pebble Beach is a great golf course and CAN be a great golf experience... it is too expensive, it is too crowded, the feel most of the time sucks... so I too believe this colors the view of many.  But if you do get lucky enough to play it uncrowded and gratis, as I did one time, well... you do tend to see the light.  Great is bantered about all too easily here I think... but it's an appropriate adjective to use regarding this golf course.  Jason B. - we will have to agree to disagree.  I've played Kapalua Plantation and yes, it is wonderful.. and yes, it allows for a lot of shots... but please, it's not Pebble Beach.  I too have played a lot of great golf courses and I am here to say Pebble Beach is even GREATER than most people think.  And my assessment takes into account the majesty of the Pacific and the golf history that has occurred there, but I am far from overwhelmed by it - see point 2 for an example of why. So yes, we shall have to agree to disagree.

2. All this being said, while Pebble is indeed fantastic, David I will say Sand Hills is slightly superior in the overall.  But that's no knock on Pebble - Sand Hills just happens to be the best course on the planet.  And Jason, it's nowhere near any ocean and has zero historic tradition.  

3.  "Pebble is a great course, PD is a better design"  Paul, you have some 'splainin to do.  That makes zero sense on the face of things....

4.  Adrian S.:  you and I are on different golf planets.  6 is boring?  3 is not well defined?  14 you dislike?  17 is disappointing?  11 can be on any resort?  Whoa. OK, I can live with the course not meeting expectations - but man that is well.... let's just say I disagree with each assessment.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Jason, I too have to take exception with your opinion.

If Pebble does one thing, it illustrates how "weak" holes are inherent to a quality design. Allowing for the ebb to the flow. Disecting individual holes is a flaw of many a modern critic and panelist.

As for Prairie Dunes. I was there this year and we paid full boat. Never have I ever felt so over-charged for the experience. I liked the course well enough but it still was not worth the outrageous guest fees charged.

I've been invited back and would love to go, but, if the accompanied rate is the same as the unaccompanied, I will pass. Plus, the presentation of rough on that marvelous terrain, with those great greens, is unneeded, IMO. But somebody has to tell the better player where to go.

[David Stamm]

Guys, perhaps I should've spelled it out. SH is Spyglass Hill. I've never played Sand Hills.

[Tom Huckaby]

Guys, perhaps I should've spelled it out. SH is Spyglass Hill. I've never played Sand Hills.

 
There was a thread just the other day on acronyms and SH was the one that was mentioned to freak people out.  Hell you also could have meant Shinnecock.

Preferring Spyglass to Pebble seems to stay in the realm of the highly competitive player, or those into "tests of golf."   It remains a tough argument to sell, as cool as Spyglass is.

Now Sand Hills...

 

[Dave_Miller]

Another thread prompted me to post this thread. I find it incredible how quick some are to criticize PB and then bring up the cost. While I agree it is outrageously expensive, I don't think that should have a bearing on the feelings one has about the course itself. True, you want to feel like you weren't ripped off, but honestly, who has felt ripped off after playing PB? Anyone? Tell me you don't get a rush when coming up from the South Gate through Carmel and you start getting your first glimpses of the course as you approach the visitors entrance. You get that glimpse after passing the Three Gables house of down to the 6th. Or after leaving the Lone Cypess you round the corner and head towards the Robert Louis Stevenson school and you can see up the 18th through the several hundred year old Cypress. While it's true there are some mediocre holes on the course, I think they stand out because of the spectacular holes that surround them. Not every hole can be 4-10. It always make me wonder why everyone will go out of their way to say "PB was good, but SH is just awesome!" SH is a great course, but come on, who can honestly say that it is superior. I know everyone has their opinions, but that really makes me scratch my head. IMHO, if one has to nitpick PB, than I think that person has become jaded.

"Well, if it didn't have the history....." PB didn't host it's first Open until 1972. The history doesn't have anything to do with grandeur of the course. It adds to it yes, but it would be alluring without it.

"Well, if it was taken away from it's ocean locale......." It is by the ocean! So are other famous courses. What does that have to w/ the design itself. Whether there's water at the bottom of the chasm that seperates the FW from the green on 8 or not, that ball is gone. If there wasn't water doesn't mean it wouldn't be thrilling when your approach soars over it. The ocean is what dictated where the holes were placed!


Well, I'm off my soap box. I just had to vent. I think PB is one of the greatest experiences, not just golf experience, EXPERIENCES of my life. If you've never played it, your cheating yourself of a memory that you will never forget the rest of your life. It truly is memorable. Afterall, isn't that why we play?

David:

This is a great analysis of what Pebble Beach is all about as a golf course.
It is simply outstanding.
Unfortunately it has gotten so expensive even I think twice about ever playing it again.  I have played it about 15 times but have finally reached the point where I believe it simply isn't it worth it to do it again. The operative word being again.
If the price were more reasonable I would be trying to play it 15 more times
Anyone who hasn't done it should play there at least once.

Best
Dave

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - very well said - it is most definitely priced out of the league of damn near everyone, which of course is a shame.  Thankfully I got extremely lucky to play it quite a few times outside of the full price, via various means.  But no way do I go back and play it again full-fare either - it just isn't worth it.  But yes, the operative word is "again" and I do think it does remain one of those things a golfer must do in his lifetime.

Kinda like a baseball fan must see Fenway Park in person.

 

[David Stamm]

Another thread prompted me to post this thread. I find it incredible how quick some are to criticize PB and then bring up the cost. While I agree it is outrageously expensive, I don't think that should have a bearing on the feelings one has about the course itself. True, you want to feel like you weren't ripped off, but honestly, who has felt ripped off after playing PB? Anyone? Tell me you don't get a rush when coming up from the South Gate through Carmel and you start getting your first glimpses of the course as you approach the visitors entrance. You get that glimpse after passing the Three Gables house of down to the 6th. Or after leaving the Lone Cypess you round the corner and head towards the Robert Louis Stevenson school and you can see up the 18th through the several hundred year old Cypress. While it's true there are some mediocre holes on the course, I think they stand out because of the spectacular holes that surround them. Not every hole can be 4-10. It always make me wonder why everyone will go out of their way to say "PB was good, but SH is just awesome!" SH is a great course, but come on, who can honestly say that it is superior. I know everyone has their opinions, but that really makes me scratch my head. IMHO, if one has to nitpick PB, than I think that person has become jaded.

"Well, if it didn't have the history....." PB didn't host it's first Open until 1972. The history doesn't have anything to do with grandeur of the course. It adds to it yes, but it would be alluring without it.

"Well, if it was taken away from it's ocean locale......." It is by the ocean! So are other famous courses. What does that have to w/ the design itself. Whether there's water at the bottom of the chasm that seperates the FW from the green on 8 or not, that ball is gone. If there wasn't water doesn't mean it wouldn't be thrilling when your approach soars over it. The ocean is what dictated where the holes were placed!


Well, I'm off my soap box. I just had to vent. I think PB is one of the greatest experiences, not just golf experience, EXPERIENCES of my life. If you've never played it, your cheating yourself of a memory that you will never forget the rest of your life. It truly is memorable. Afterall, isn't that why we play?

David:

This is a great analysis of what Pebble Beach is all about as a golf course.
It is simply outstanding.
Unfortunately it has gotten so expensive even I think twice about ever playing it again.  I have played it about 15 times but have finally reached the point where I believe it simply isn't it worth it to do it again. The operative word being again.
If the price were more reasonable I would be trying to play it 15 more times
Anyone who hasn't done it should play there at least once.

Best
Dave

Dave, I completely agree. There are too many courses I haven't played to warrant another go and take out another mortgage to make it happen.

Having said that, I think everyone should play there at least once in their life. As you said, if it were more reasonable I would be inclined to play it more, not w/ the current fare.


Here's a side question for everyone. It has become apparent that the Bandon courses are really giving Pebble a run for it's money as a destination. Does anyone think it's possible that Pebble Beach Resorts might gt creative w/ their pricing ie offer lower priced package deals to remain competitive? Airline price wars sort to speak? I've heard that lately, it has become easier to get on PB with shorter notice. As you all know, soemtimes to get what you want, you have to call 18 months in advance. Any thoughts?

[ed_getka]

Pebble Beach is close to a must play at this jaded point in my life. I have seen a representative sample of greatness at this point, so the frugal part of my nature dictates that I will choose great courses to play that don't require a 2nd mortgage. I had planned on playing Cape Kidnappers on an upcoming trip until I found out it was $300 (that is US dollars), and Barnbougle is $85. CK is NOT 3 times better than BD.
   Having said all that, when my young son, who loves golf, is old enough to appreciate it I will take him to Pebble. However, the $1,000 green fee is going to really make me wince.  (My son is 8 right now).

[Tom Huckaby]

David - interesting side-question.  But while it's certainly true that Bandon is right up there with Pebble in terms of the courses, well... Bandon as a town is not Carmel and likely never will be.  In any case it is certainly a legitimate competitor - I just have to figure it's a hell of a lot more likely Bandon's prices get raised than Pebble's lowered.  But yes, dare to dream.

 

[JESII]

I only played Pebble twice. A practice round and the medal play round of the '99 Amateur. we also played Spyglass. Cost couldn't really be considered a factor as I played those four rounds plus the two qualifying rounds on nice Philadelphia area courses all for $100 or something.

I was underwhelmed by Pebble Beach. I'll be the first to admit that I went into it with very high expectations...always a recipe for disappointment it seems. I am not suggesting the course was easy, or even bad, I did feel however that there are a handful of courses in the Philadelphia area that might be better.

Other than 11 and 14, do any of the greens demand consideration as far back as the tee? #11 seems like it might be better to approach from the left rough than the right edge of the fairway...is this accurate? #14 seems like such a small difficult target to hit into that I felt pressure to hit good aggressive drives and second shots in order to confidently hit the green with some sort or wedge or short iron. This is different from my normal view of "unreachable par fives. {by the way, seeing Tiger hit that green in two the very next year was mind-numbing}


I will admit that #'s 6 and 8 blew me away. Even on this site, #6 doesn't get much discussion...why is that. How cool is that second shot?

And the aura of Pebble is clearly special, but for me it did not carry over to a one-of-kind golf experience.

[ed_getka]

David,
   I can't see Pebble ever coming down on their price. In fact, their price has gone up in ways that aren't readily apparent. It used to be if you stayed at Pebble Beach lodging, the green fee was cheaper, and the cart was included. Apparently, neither of those things is true any longer, but perhaps they might bring those back to add "value" to the equation.
    It was funny in 1991 when I played Pebble with my brother. At the time the green fee was $225, but you could get on for $165 if you stayed at Pebble lodging. The catch was that the cheapest room was $400. Pebble has a very odd way of determining value.

[Mike Hendren]

All this experience crap belies the greatness of the golf course.  Sure, the first is rather pedestrian, but a darned better hole than the 18th at Cypress Point Club and serves nicely to get the golfer quickly away from town.

The second is a fantastic short par five that puts a premium on driving the ball in the fairway so the cross-hazard can be easily negotiated.  One feels a little pressure to pick up a stroke here to boot.  Maybe you guys are too good to appreciate the hole.

The third challenges the player to pick a line and distance off the tee lest he wind up playing annie-over around the green after an offline tee shot.  

The tiny greens are works of art, a really underrated set that puts an incredible premium on iron play with deceptive macro-movement further defending par (birdie in today's game.)

The fairways rest comfortably on the landscape with no attempt to compete with the natural beauty of the site.  

Many confounding shots into oblivion: 2nd at the 6th, tee shot at the 8th, tee shot at the 11th, tee shot at the 17th.  

All for the price of a modern driver.

It's a better golf course than Cypress Point Club and like Augusta National Golf Club, is a tremendous golf course notwithstanding questionable stewardship.  It is a light that cannot be hidden under a bushel basket.

Just my opinion - it oughta be yours.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Amen brother Michael and I am happy to take your opinion and make it my own!

 

Re the experience crap, well... it's just a means of trying to understand those who don't share that opinion.

TH

[ed_getka]

I think the test for those who haven't played Pebble is to walk the first 6 holes. If at that point you aren't willing to pay any amount of $$ to play it once you may not think it worth it when you are done.

[Mike Hendren]

FWIW, I don't think I'm entitled to any fabulous treatment for my $425.  Just let me play.  

Two weeks after September 11th  we went to the wine country with a couple of days down in Carmel.  A close friend roomed with R. J. Harper in college and arranged a complimentary tee time.  I arrived in the golf shop and there's no record of this and R. J. is nowhere to be found.  Fortunately, the course is wide open so I fork over my credit card and head to the first tee - happy as can be.  

So you see, I'm an apologist for one reason, it's a great golf course and I got to play it.

Mike

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