[Bryan Izatt]

Or, alternately, why is it not ranked higher?  Why does Fazio not get more respect for it?

I played 36 holes there yesterday and was reminded of what a wonderful course it is.  

The routing constantly changes direction.  As a consequence dealing with the direction and impact of the wind is a constant challenge.  

The bunkering is both artistic and challenging.  The green complexes are excellent.  Push up greens.  Run offs.  False fronts.  As much internal movement in the greens as any I've seen (almost over the top at the speeds they play them).

Crossing bunkers.

Double fairways.

A short par 4. A long par 4.  

Reachable risk reward par 5's.

Doglegs left and right.

A par three that has a reverse Redan green (the 7th, but it isn't a Redan for the purists).

An Alps like hole (the 12th).

Even a Valley of Sin feature on the 10th.

Why dosn't it get more respect.  What more does it need to be great?  

[Lloyd_Cole]

Bryan
Good question.
I played a few years ago and I found myself asking the same thing - why did I prefer Rolling Oaks?
I'm not being facetious. I just didn't like it that much. Maybe my expections were too high..

[Jon Spaulding]

I love this place; the conditioning was a little weak both times I've been there, which would be a part of the ranking problem. Certainly a better layout that some of the courses rated ahead of it.....

[Mike_Sweeney]

Brian,

I am a big fan. It needs a couple of things:

* Better location. It is tough to get there however Florida is moving that way. We were told this past week that the nearby Southern Hills by Pete Dye is very good.

* On-site lodging - I always hear of rumors of things happening, but the Japanese owners seem to have difficulty getting anything done. It it had the right lodging, people would stay for a few days and it could become the East Coast Bandon without an ocean.

* Different owners - The conditioning was fine when I played. However over the weekend I played golf with two people who are responsible for keeping a course, and they were focused on every weed, every pebble that was out of place. I doubt the super has the budget to do what he wants.

* I only played the course once so I cant really comment on changes to the course that may be needed, but I do not think many are needed. My favorite Fazio, but I have not played many.

* New logo. That Golf Magazine guy was right.  

[Tom Roewer]

Hving played Pine Barrens dozens of times I have always enjoyed playing there.  Mike makes a point with the lack of amenities.
I do know that when constructed they found a very large population of Gopher Tortoises.  My understanding is that you have two choices tops when this happens.  Either move them or abide by many restrictions as to what you can apply maintenance-wise.  My Superintendent told me that they have a tome to refer to on this issue.  Perhaps that explains why they seem to have inconsistent conditioning.  

[jeffwarne]

There's nothing wrong with World Woods.


The fact that some people feel it's hard to get to or has no lodging serves it well.

[Bill_McBride]

Pine Barrens, from what I have heard, is part of the Mike Stranz tour.  I had lunch with one of my suppliers yesterday, who is not knowledgeable in the slightest about GCA.  He was raving about Pine Barrens.  It is truly a gem.  It's good to hear positive stuff about a Fazio design.

[Mike_Sweeney]

There's nothing wrong with World Woods.


The fact that some people feel it's hard to get to or has no lodging serves it well.

Jeff,

I am going to disagree with you on this one. The question above was focused more on why it does not get more respect from the outside world of rankings not GCA.com. At least that is how I read it.

The prime season there is obviously from November to April when day light is at its shortest, and frost delays occasionally happen. We stayed near I75 and drove 30 minutes in by the time you get the coffee and bagel. Had a 2 hour frost delay so we only got in 18 holes on PB and had to skip Rolling Oaks. Two hundred guys in that clubhouse during a delay is no picnic. If were staying on-site, the second 18 would have been easy. Not to mention, 36 holes of golf, dinner and then a putting contest on the practice green under the lights with a cocktail or two would be the perfect day at World Woods, IMO. Also with that awesome practice facility and 9 hole course, there are many reasons to finish off a day there at sunset rather than have to go find a restaurant near the hotel.

If all of those things are in place and utilized, it brings in additional revenue which could go to conditioning.

None of this stuff has to do with the course, but again the question seemed geared to the rankings and general golf worlds.

Bill McB,

I once thought Stranz was the associate on-site at Pine Barrens, but have been told otherwise here on GCA.com. Do you know for sure he was ?

[Jon Spaulding]

MS left Fazio in 1987. I believe PB was built in 1993.

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/biography.html

I remember seeing a very good write up on PB in, I think Links Mag, but it's been a long time (10 years ago or so). What I remember is that TF had just done(or was doing) the practice course at Pine Valley, spent a lot of time at PB, and PB was the beneficiary. The attached photo would concur....

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The problem with developing the land surrounding World Woods is caves!!! WCI had plans but...

www.sptimes.com/2005/05/26/Floridian/A_cavernous_divide.shtml

[SPDB]

Pine Barrens, from what I have heard, is part of the Mike Stranz tour.

Jon - It doesn't matter when Strantz left Fazio, or if
Strantz never worked on the course in question while
at Fazio. If the course is a Fazio design and liked,
Strantz must have been involved.  

[Chris Burgard]

Bryan,

Pine Barrens seems to be rated fairly highly. It is ranked 17th best public course by Golf Magazine (dropping from 9th) and Golfweek ranks it 2nd best public in Florida and 26th best Modern in the US which includes privates. Golf Digest has it at 26th best public.

I am curious as I haven't played any of the courses ranked above it...are you suggesting that it should be in the company of the Bandon courses, Pebble, Pinehurst #2, Bethpage etc.?

Chris

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
add in amenities like all that and you have a whole nother layer of costs and management.
maybe they make more money,maybe they don't.

I've played WW ten times at least and it's always been in great condition. But I wouldn't care if it were just average.(maybe it is, I just don't really notice condition that much)
You can spend all the money you want,but grass that is dormant will still be dormant.

To each his own- I just love the fact it's  hardly anything but golf and enjoy that it's not packed all the time.

[Chris Hughes]

personally I like the Rolling Oaks course better.

[John_Conley]

Eric, Lloyd:

Many people do prefer Rolling Oaks.  I don't know that you'll find many on this board, however.  The architecture there is bland in relation and I cannot think of one hole where you aren't trying to play the centerline.  Pine Barrens has a ton of strategy.

Bryan:

The main knocks against Pine Barrens are -
1) conditioning very rarely acceptable
2) routing necessitates a compass as the area around #7 tee is very confusing
3) it isn't taken as seriously as it would be if it has world-class amenities like a lodge

Regarding #3, even I get frustrated when I'm out there.  I can look past the fact they didn't have signs for the holes for nearly a decade (did they ever get them?).  The lunch counter is appalling.  All they have to do is prepare something quickly to get people back on the course for their second round and they can't even do that proficiently.

A day at World Woods is about as good as it gets for me.  I try to go annually and don't always make it there.  I love the place.

[Pete Lavallee]

My only play there was 5 years ago in Sept.; granted not the best timt of year to enjoy common bermuda greens. Are the greens at PB still common bermuda? I'm sure an upgrade to Tifdwarf or Tifeagle would make all the difference in hightening the World Woods experience.

[Brian_Belden]

Many years ago they played several mini tour events at WW. The Rolling Oaks Course always posted lower scores. It seemed to be much more forgiving not only off the tee but around the greens also. The Pine Barrens course is much more intimidating visually and with just cause. I felt the penalties for missed shots are plentiful on this course and hole strategies require much more thought.

[Bill_McBride]

I once thought Stranz was the associate on-site at Pine Barrens, but have been told otherwise here on GCA.com. Do you know for sure he was ?

I was told at some point that he was, and it would make sense after playing Tobacco Road.  

Can anyone confirm or deny this one way or the other?  Thanks.

[Jay Flemma]

I can confirm...Mike never even saw WW, let alone worked on it...he told me so when I interviewed him in 2004.  He said right out he was never on the property and never did any work on it and it was always a regret of his that he never played it either.

That being said, PB is prbly my fave Fazio design...then maybe ventana canyon next...PB has great angles and cross hazards, bunkering and greens.  Lots of fun at a really good price.

[Robert Thompson]

Can someone explain to me what location and having a resort has to do with the quality of the golf course? I think Pine Barrens is exceptional, even if you can hear banjos playing in the parking lot (okay -- no more Deliverance references.)

There are some holes that I think are truly intriguing, including the par five on the front with the fairway split by sandy waste areas. The rough looking bunkers came well before it was fashionable.

[Gary Slatter]

Its a great course but they don't charge enough nor advertise enough to move up on ratings.

[Jay Flemma]

I also marvel at the guys who cry about having to drive 20-25 minutes every day back and forth from the Plantation Inn...I thnk its a terrific place to bunker down and have no problem with a minimal drive in and out...you're gonna play 36 there...an extra 50 minutes for driving is totally doable even in the dead of winter...

[Bill_McBride]

I can confirm...Mike never even saw WW, let alone worked on it...he told me so when I interviewed him in 2004.  He said right out he was never on the property and never did any work on it and it was always a regret of his that he never played it either.

Jay, thanks for clearing this up with first hand knowledge of the facts.    We could probably use more of this sort of stuff around GCA.com, heaven knows I certainly could........

[Jon Spaulding]

Pine Barrens, from what I have heard, is part of the Mike Stranz tour.

Jon - It doesn't matter when Strantz left Fazio, or if
Strantz never worked on the course in question while
at Fazio. If the course is a Fazio design and liked,
Strantz must have been involved.  

Got it; I'll keep my nose out of this one....as a wise man once said..."it's not a lie Jerry, if you believe it".

[Greg Tallman]

Is this the same crowd that would annoint Bandon Resort as the eighth wonder of the world complaining about driving 30 minutes?

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