Marine Memorial GC/Camp Pendleton

« **on:** December 11, 2006, 11:13:35 AM »

This course was recently opened for public play M-Th. It is a William P. Bell course opened in 1949. Dave Stamm and I played it a couple weeks ago and it was enjoyable, although conditioning of the greens was offensive at best. Green fees are $27 to walk and there was no one there on the Tuesday we went. They also sell tobacco products in the see-thru counter in the pro shop which is a nice touch.

Appears that some of the original WPB touches are still in play, or have been grassed in. I do not know who's had their paws on this since 1949, other than the grounds crew. Some silly palm trees have been planted in various locations around the course. If any opinions or comments, please post!

approach to par 4 3rd

green at par 4 3rd

par 3 4th (note the grassed in fronting bunker)

fronting bunker on 4th (with exotic male dancer)

approach shot to par 4 5th (fairway slopes r/l with a slightly redan look to the green)

approach to par 4 9th

par 4 12th (with diagonal hazard & split fairways)

par 5 15th

2nd shot at 15

grassed in right front bunker at 15

2nd shot at 18

« **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:30:26 AM »

While it is easy to be alturistic with someone else's money, my initial thoughts when these latest couple of posts have surfaced about the Camp Pendleton golf course are:

Why don't some big name architecture-design guy who has made it great in America, do something patriotic and generous and offer to provide a first class remodelling of this beautiful site so that a high quality golf experience would be available to the Marines, their families, and retirees? And, make it as handicap accessible as possible due to the enormous increase in now limbless veterans.

« **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:31:34 AM »

Mark, from what I understand from Pete L, the course didn't get much play even before Iraq. I've been told that the course sees similiar traffic as what Jon and I experienced that day, which in So Cal, is a good thing.

« **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:33:57 AM »

An article I saw stated that the course was opened because everyone's overseas. Makes sense, unfortunately.

Lots of ground movement, grassed in bunkers, and wind to protect par here.

« **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:36:18 AM »

Quote from: Jon Spaulding on December 11, 2006, 11:13:35 AM

fronting bunker on 5th (with exotic male dancer)

Thanks, Jon. Now I have to kill the thread I was going to start about "Guess my night job"! But let me assure everyone, Chris Farley's got nothin' on me!

« **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:36:35 AM »

Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 11, 2006, 11:30:26 AM

While it is easy to be alturistic with someone else's money, my initial thoughts when these latest couple of posts have surfaced about the Camp Pendleton golf course are:

Why don't some big name architecture-design guy who has made it great in America, do something patriotic and generous and offer to provide a first class remodelling of this beautiful site so that a high quality golf experience would be available to the Marines, their families, and retirees? And, make it as handicap accessible as possible due to the enormous increase in now limbless veterans.

I think a couple of the primary WPB experts reside on GCA; maybe they can be talked into a free restoration!

« **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:38:17 AM »

BTW, that picture is I believe the par 3 4th, not 5th.

« **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:39:46 AM »

Quote from: Jon Spaulding on December 11, 2006, 11:36:35 AM

Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 11, 2006, 11:30:26 AM
While it is easy to be alturistic with someone else's money, my initial thoughts when these latest couple of posts have surfaced about the Camp Pendleton golf course are:

Why don't some big name architecture-design guy who has made it great in America, do something patriotic and generous and offer to provide a first class remodelling of this beautiful site so that a high quality golf experience would be available to the Marines, their families, and retirees? And, make it as handicap accessible as possible due to the enormous increase in now limbless veterans.

I think a couple of the primary WPB experts reside on GCA; maybe they can be talked into a free restoration!

Calling Tommy N, when you get back from the Peach State..........

« **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:41:42 AM »

Quote from: David Stamm on December 11, 2006, 11:38:17 AM

BTW, that picture is I believe the par 3 4th, not 5th.

I just changed it to the correct number. Still fuming over a bad club selection on that one!

« **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2006, 11:55:45 AM »

Mark, I don't know if this is the kind of answer you're looking for, but in a word, no. Not on that hole. The hole plays downhill and there is a strong wind on the property that on that particlular hole, blows left to right. I just tried to ride the wind w/ my fade. Now, had the "hollow", which is a bunker skeleton, was still a bunker, it might make my decision a little different, but it all depends on the wind.

« **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:06:43 PM »

I have to get one of my regular local golf pals to join me the next time I get out to that area and be his guest to play this one. He is Steve the Marine Corps Major, retired. He is a pistol of a guy, and I'm very proud to call him my good friend. Joined the Corps the year I was born, wounded in Korea, went to Officer's Training and was a Mustang CO, two tours V.N., and Mucci affectionately calls him Sargie.

« **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:07:58 PM »

Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on December 11, 2006, 11:45:06 AM

Gentlemen,

Please comment regarding the use of "dead ground!"

For example, David, did dead ground influence your club selection on the 4th?

Mark

The ground game was not in play; the greens were about a 5 on the stimp, and playing even softer. You would just throw a dart at every hole.

"If" they could firm it up, you would look at the place and want to run the ball in on about 1/2 the holes, especially the ones into the wind, which are the longest par 4's on the course. I'll get some ground photos adjacent to the green sites the next time we're out there.

Having said all that.....kikuya has taken over, which really precludes a ground game and the nice features become visual only (ala Riviera).

« **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:15:21 PM »

Quote from: Jon Spaulding on December 11, 2006, 12:07:58 PM

Quote from: Mark Bourgeois on December 11, 2006, 11:45:06 AM
Gentlemen,

Please comment regarding the use of "dead ground!"

For example, David, did dead ground influence your club selection on the 4th?

Mark

The ground game was not in play; the greens were about a 5 on the stimp, and playing even softer. You would just throw a dart at every hole.

"If" they could firm it up, you would look at the place and want to run the ball in on about 1/2 the holes, especially the ones into the wind, which are the longest par 4's on the course. I'll get some ground photos adjacent to the green sites the next time we're out there.

I agree w/ Jon. On a few occasions, I tried to play a low shot and try to have it release from the front on to the green on some of my approach shots. It was hopeful thinking on my part, but the look of some of the approaches made me want to try, even though the conditions there aren't suited to it. I guess I just need to get to the UK and get it out of my system!

« **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:44:55 PM »

Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 11, 2006, 11:30:26 AM

While it is easy to be alturistic with someone else's money, my initial thoughts when these latest couple of posts have surfaced about the Camp Pendleton golf course are:

Why don't some big name architecture-design guy who has made it great in America, do something patriotic and generous and offer to provide a first class remodelling of this beautiful site so that a high quality golf experience would be available to the Marines, their families, and retirees? And, make it as handicap accessible as possible due to the enormous increase in now limbless veterans.

First off RJ all new construction at any Ca. golf course has got to be handicap excessible; we just built a new snack bar/ restroom facility at the turn at Balboa Park, which is handicap accessible, to the tune of $495,000!

As to your first point any upgrade to the facility would necesitate an upgrade in maintenance dollars for its' upkeep and that's NOt what CP is about. It closely mirrors maintenance pracrices of the past; slightly shaggy greens, just enough bunkers to maintain interest and an extremely pleasent walk through an undisturbed part of nature. Honestly if you can't enjoy a round at Marine Memorial, needing all the bells and whistles of modern golf maintenance, at an expense that has to come out of the Marine's operating budget in the long run, then you have lost sight of the essence of the game.

I'm very glad that Jon and David discovered this hidden jewel and despite less than perfect upkeep, had a memorable time on Billy Bell's ground hugging contours. If you are anywhere in the vicintity I strongly suggest you give it a try for two reasons:

First giving a finacial boost to something that makes a difference in the lives of Marines returning fom war torn Iraq and secondly to get in touch with how the game can be played in less than perfect conditions and still provide all the joy of a round at Shadow Creek!

« **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2006, 12:55:43 PM »

Why did California ever allow the importation of the Eucs?

« **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:01:17 PM »

Funny you mentioned that Mike. Jon reminded me while we were playing. I'll let him tell you.

« **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:02:43 PM »

Pete, are you saying that an upgrade of the design, or maintenance practices is not in order? If so, is your reasoning that an old relic shouldn't be touched, or that the costs are too high to maintain if golf features are shined up?

I'm not wondering if it should be remodelled to mimic a "Shadow Creek" sort of presentation...

I'm just saying that those grassed in bunkers, perhaps the greens subsurfaces and drainage, and some internal countouring in the greens (ala Rustic Canyon) and some TLC could be provided as a donation by some of these folks that are highly well compensated in the GCA biz.

Or, take a fellow like Pete Dye... didn't he get rather handsomely compensated via fed super funds for his "clean up" of the old bombing range at Whistling Straits, before they could grind it out into a golf course where Kohler said he was given an unlimitted budget, and exceeded it!?

How many guys have their beaks so wet in the military contracting biz that they couldn't afford to do something charitable in the way of contributing some of that scratch back to provide a really nice golf course at historic Camp Pendleton for the primary use of our Marine active and retired? (and keep the costs the same!) What they spend to refurbish on M-1 Abrahms tank would do the trick as fa as tuning up this course (if it had to come out of the defense budget because no one would donate) not that at this particular juncture in time the tank isn't needed more... $:-\$

« **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:13:03 PM »

Quote from: Mike Benham on December 11, 2006, 12:55:43 PM

Why did California ever allow the importation of the Eucs?

The Santa Fe RR imported them by the millions for RR ties; two years later creosote was discovered and they became obsolete.

« **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:20:18 PM »

Thanks for posting the pictures. This course has the look of William F. Bell's Papago muni in Phoenix:

« **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:22:12 PM »

Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 11, 2006, 01:02:43 PM

Pete, are you saying that an upgrade of the design, or maintenance practices is not in order? If so, is your reasoning that an old relic shouldn't be touched, or that the costs are too high to maintain if golf features are shined up?

Rj,

In the scheme of things the GC has to be self sustaining, there just aren't enough Marines in this somewhat desolate location to support upscale maintenace. The GC was forced to close on Mon. for the last few years just so that it could afford to stay open! These are the dynamics at play, if you want the course to remain open it has to suffer just a little in comparison to everyone else to remain a viable enterprise. MWR does it's best to keep the Troops entertained but spending excess dollars to buff out a perfectly good GC at the exspence of another plate of armour for a Humvee just doesn't make sense.

Although Jon chose to focus his few photos on what isn't there I could go back today and take twice as many of what is there and give an entirely diiferent picture. There truely is much to enjoy at CPMM and I'm sure you and Sarge would agree after a round there.

« **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:27:05 PM »

Looks like PL stole my thunder on the Eucs.....SFRR planted them in RSF, then found out they weren't worth a crap for ties.....sold the land off. Eucs are everywhere else bcause they smell and look good.

I have some other photos of what "is" there, but the "isnt" spices things up a little bit.

Pete, I agree with you on a remodel....although the thought of a delicate, unmarketed Bell restoration is appealing. It will not happen in my lifetime, and the course is great the way it is. The greens could be a lot better, but that's life.

« **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:33:54 PM »

Quote from: Pete Lavallee on December 11, 2006, 01:22:12 PM

Quote from: RJ_Daley on December 11, 2006, 01:02:43 PM
Pete, are you saying that an upgrade of the design, or maintenance practices is not in order? If so, is your reasoning that an old relic shouldn't be touched, or that the costs are too high to maintain if golf features are shined up?

Rj,

In the scheme of things the GC has to be self sustaining, there just aren't enough Marines in this somewhat desolate location to support upscale maintenace. The GC was forced to close on Mon. for the last few years just so that it could afford to stay open! These are the dynamics at play, if you want the course to remain open it has to suffer just a little in comparison to everyone else to remain a viable enterprise. MWR does it's best to keep the Troops entertained but spending excess dollars to buff out a perfectly good GC at the exspence of another plate of armour for a Humvee just doesn't make sense.

Although Jon chose to focus his few photos on what isn't there I could go back today and take twice as many of what is there and give an entirely diiferent picture. There truely is much to enjoy at CPMM and I'm sure you and Sarge would agree after a round there.

On the financial side, I have been struggling with telling others about this, because I liked the emptiness ...quite a dilemma.

« **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:47:34 PM »

Here's a link to San Diego Union Tribune's Tod Leonard's article about what CPMM means to the Marines and why it was opened to the public:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/golf/20061114-9999-lz1s14marine.html

« **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2006, 01:56:05 PM »

Quote from: Jon Spaulding on December 11, 2006, 01:27:05 PM

Looks like PL stole my thunder on the Eucs.....SFRR planted them in RSF, then found out they weren't worth a crap for ties.....sold the land off. Eucs are everywhere else bcause they smell and look good.

Oh, I know WHY they did it but like the municipalities that plant certain species of trees along sidewalks only to find out 15 years later that the roots are ruining the sidewalks, you have to second guess them. And Jon, only properly pruned and maintain Eucs look good, they are a very dirty tree and some varieties have little or no useful benefit, except firewood ... (although I do have a nice set of Adirondeck chairs made from Euc ...)

« **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2006, 02:04:14 PM »

On the subject of Eucs it should be noted they are a fire hazard as well. The Oakland Hills fire was a great example of what they can do when they catch.

Not really a good tree for a state as usually dry as California

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Jon Spaulding

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