[Patrick_Mucci]

for almost every level of amateur golfer ?

We often limit our discussions on golf course architecture to the context of the PGA Tour Pro.

Excluding the best golfers in the world, can a golf course with modest yardage present a more than adequate challenge to the amateur golfer ?

From the zero handicap to the 24 handicap ?

Can the architecture be interesting enough to be appealing while at the same time challenging ?

Or, has hi-tech and increased distance raised the bar such that 6,700 or some other yardage would be the minimum needed to present both interest and challenge ?

[Paul Payne]

Absolutely.

I know there are other shorter courses mentioned on this site that I have not played before, but I have played a few that would certainly fit this catagory. Two that first come to mind are Palmetto which plays right around 6400 yards and it's neighbor Aiken CC which plays a short 6200.

I have mentioned Aiken before and I would highly recommend it to anyone passing through the area. What makes it a good test in my mind are three things.

1) many relatively tight tee shots.

2) protected greens without a lot of relief nearby.

3) undulating and FAST greens.

Aiken can be an absolute blast to play and there are still opportunities to pull the driver out if you like. The par fives are probably it's most vulnerable aspect.

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, with the presence of WIND, the Old Course offers an interesting yet challenging test from the yellow tees.

[David_Tepper]

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

No

[Walt_Cutshall]

It can be done. My first thought is of Dedham (MA) Country Club, a wonderful little Seth Raynor design. Right now, it is just too short at 6,000 yards. But I think if you could add another 400 yards, you would have a fantastic little course that would challenge golfers of every level (and you could do it without tricking up the course).

[John_Conley]

Absolutely.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Yes, see LuLu CC(Ross) in suburban Philadelphia.

[Mark_F]

Patrick, with the presence of WIND, the Old Course offers an interesting yet challenging test from the yellow tees.

You surely mean the presence of a hurricane.

[jeffwarne]

Of course.
Virtually every older course I've played in Scotland was under that # from the visitors or members tees we played.
I am interested and challenged by every one .

Palmetto interests and challenges me every time.
There are also a lot of low  to scratch handicappers who hit it 230-260 who would be interested and challenged by a well designed 6400 yard course.

A lot of times it just depends on the composition of the holes.
You could have a par 70 or 71 course that has two difficult drive and pitch short par fours and a short par three and it could play quite long on the other holes and still be around 6400 yards,


I just played three different 7100+ yard courses in South Florida-while I was challenged (I'm always challenged), I certainly wasn't interested.
If you'd've taken 100 yards off 2 or 3 380-420 yard par fours and 50 yards off 2 par 5's (one course had three par fives that were exactly 546 yards with water right of the green) and perhaps 70 yards off a par three you might've actually had some interest (or at least some variety), and would've ended up with a  6500 yard course .

It certainly wouldn't have been any worse and might've added a little excitement

[Tommy Williamsen]

Actually, it is well done I think it can be more interesting.  But it has to challenge the player to be accurate, make choices off the tee, and have interesting greens complexes.  I think a 150 yard shot to a well design green is more interesting than a 200 yard shot to a bland green.

[Philip Gawith]

Patrick - my home course Huntercombe is 6,300 yards and it definitely meets your test. Not only that, it does so with no water hazards and only 12  bunkers on the course. Part of the challenge lies in it being quite tight - but even if you are hitting all your second shots from the fairway, the green complexes are sufficiently challenging that it is quite difficult to get your ball close  enough to the hole to score as well as you might otherwise expect.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, you don't mention the par of the course, so the comment that a par 69 or 70 at 6400 yards could be difficult for the distance is correct.

More appropriate would be a course with short but difficult par 3s, a raft of long par 4s and just a couple of real 3-shot par 4s.  Most fun would be a course with a lot of half-par holes where the "birdie" holes are as devilish as #1 NGLA.

Come to think of it, NGLA comes close when the tees are up as Shivas said above.  This is a topic that is dear to my heart as I detest the trend toward the "obsoleting" of the great old courses by technology, so I will try to outline a composite course at less than 6400 yards that would be a true championship test.  It will be a mixture of short but wily  holes and long holes.

Of course I get to control the speed of the greens!  The course could prove to be "unwalkable" due to geography......#1 NGLA to #2 Olympic Club for example!

Out the door now but will work on this over the next few days.

[Bruce Katona]

Somerset Hills

[Andy Troeger]

South Bend CC is a pretty good example of this...it plays at 6490 yards par 71 (but it wouldn't be that hard to take out 90 yards in selected locations without making the course any easier--especially if you wanted it to be par 70 for the sake of argument).

They hold a US Open local qualifier there every year and it beats up on guys. Most of the time somebody manages to shoot 69, but par is a good bet to advance most years, and its very rare for someone to go low. The greens are very challenging, the fairways require precision, and the par threes are wonderful and challenging. That seems to be the common mix amongst other great courses of its length.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
You are out of touch with the average golfer to even ask such a question!  I think Lehigh yielded only a half a dozen or so rounds this year under 70 and 95% or all rounds are played on a 6200 yard golf course.  I guess we all just suck  

[cary lichtenstein]

Yes for 99.9% of the golfers

[Bill Gayne]

I'm thinking about a summer trip and just read the courses by country for Machrihanish. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/machrihanish1.html

Sounds like a great golf course at 6,200 yards. Not exactly sure how I'm going to get to Kintyre though.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Absolutely, even for the PGA pros.

Unfortunately, even with an excellent and interesting design, such a course would be immediately critisized and dismissed as "tricked up".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Oh, I dunno, Pat, what is the yardage if all the tees are up at the National?  

6,453 from the Green tees[/color]

Doesn't that pretty much answer the question?


NO[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Somerset Hills


6,572 par 71[/color]

Bill McBride,

Assume par to be 72

[C. Squier]

Resounding YES!  Shoreacres is in my top 3 all-time favorites.

CPS

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat-

My current home course plays to 6,200 yards, my home course this summer played at 7,341 from the back tees.

I acctually enjoy playing from a yardage like 7,341 occasionaly. It provides a difficult challenge. Not often because I don't think it makes for fun golf.

The course I am playing right now, the 6,200, I find to be much more interesting and fun, then the 7,341 course.

Its as challenging as any 6400-6900 yard course. Top college golfers play the course consistently and have a very hard time breaking par.

I have a great time playing the course and would rather play it then many 6400+ courses.

The thing I have found about GOOD short yardage courses is the land really has to come into play in order for the course to play difficult.
Where as a course that is longer can get away with some mediocre golf land.

[Tim Gavrich]

How long is Yale from the middle tees?

How about Newport CC?

Or does the golf course have to be under 6400 from the tips in order to qualify?

I know I'd find more fun and interest in playing a 6400 yard golf course most days than I would by playing a 7400 yard golf course.  Hitting driver-5 iron into every par four is a drag!

[David_Madison]

Pat- Tobacco Road is 6554 from the tips, with a par of 71. Nobody questions the quality of the course, certainly not the criteria you set for this thread. You could drop 155 yards, or just play one set up at just over 6300 and still retain the challenge and interest for all levels of player. Same applies to Mid Pines, at 6528 from the tips and a par 72; it would be easy to carve 130 yards off and still keep everything pretty much intact.

[RJ_Daley]

It depends on what interest and variety lies in the LZs, whether an LZ at 280-300 yards, or the normal LZ for the average player at 230-40.  If there is variety out there for consequences for your next shot on the approach, and diverse circumstances that depend on the position you have attempted to reach (or lay off and back to) in an LZ, then there is no question in my mind that a course can be quite a challenge and interesting at sub 6400.  Is a course not interesting if a few par 4s and even par 5s might offer a specific advantage if a particular LZ can be reached with < a driver, and far more trouble and risk lies in the further distant LZ that a long hitter can get to?  

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