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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« on: December 06, 2006, 02:26:21 PM »
Will a few of the Golf Digest Raters please explain to me the rating process wherein 3 Creek Ranch beat out Ballyneal.

Thank you

Cary
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom Huckaby

Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2006, 02:36:23 PM »
Cary:  easy - it scored better on the defined criteria.

Your welcome.

TH

ps - I haven't been to either - and I'd guess there aren't 100 people on the planet who've been to both... maybe not even 20.
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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2006, 03:20:12 PM »
Cary:

I'll be more blunt than Huckaby.   There are over 800 panelists at GD and a huge faction (I would say a majority)  like modern designs.  If you look at the historical results, Tom Fazio, Jim Engh, Jack Nicklaus have not only won or placed the majority of new courses, but they have also placed many courses on the top 100.  Its a simple democratic process.

PS.  I haven't played either.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 04:42:59 PM by Joel_Stewart »
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Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2006, 03:40:40 PM »
One out of two is not bad! Below is my offering........

















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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 03:44:32 PM »
Speaking of raters preferring modern designs, I believe that if GD raters scores were taken as turned in, few or none of the classics would make the top 100. This doesn't happen, because GD post processes the scores to add points to the classics for being classic, thereby elevating them in the rankings.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 04:34:49 PM »
Trumped by a bunch of pictures again!

Cary:  The simple answer to your question is that probably only one or two GOLF DIGEST panelists actually played both courses -- the Best New rankings lack the degree of head-to-head comparison necessary to legitimize them, but by pretending they have a bulletproof formula for judging greatness they skip over that part.
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Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 04:40:32 PM »
No matter what the rankings say, congratulations to Tom and his crew on a great addition here in Northeastern Colorado.  No one can predict how great it will or will not become, only time will tell.
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"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 04:43:15 PM »
Isn't 3 Creek where Tiger is setting up a little cabin for get aways?  If so, is that a factor... ::)
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 04:54:11 PM »
"Trumped by a bunch of pictures again!"

If that be the case Mr Doak, maybe you should hire me to photograph your courses. Allthough, I believe Alice Dye was a big fan of your photographic prowess.
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Jim Nugent

Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2006, 02:23:33 AM »
Aidan photographing Doak's courses sounds like the perfect marriage.  I would LOVE to see those pictures.  Bet they blow the other pix of Doak courses out of the water.  
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Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 03:01:12 AM »
I was fortunate enough to play and rate both courses this year.  As a rater I try to get out and rate/see as many courses as possible in order to have as broad of a view as possible as well as continue to learn and appreciate the various styles and aspects in golf design.  I was able to rate about 65 courses this year ranging from Washington, California, Nevada, Montana, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, and Texas.  In fact, I was able to rate 5 of the top 10 courses from the best new private category (Carlton Woods, 3 Creek Ranch, Ballyneal, Tumble Creek, and Tuhaye).

I also was quite surprised to see 3 Creek out do Ballyneal and I'll admit I enjoy a lot of aspects of "new" design styles.  But I felt it was pretty clear that Ballyneal was the superior course.  I visited Ballyneal in mid-June (I don't think the course had been open long) and 3 Creek in mid-July.  Obviously I can't speak for other panelists and everyone has their own opinion, but the only category I ranked 3 Creek higher than Ballyneal in was conditioning.  I don't know if GD still throws that category out in the best new rankings, but I know they used to.  The shaggy greens didn't bother me (although it did take a few holes to get used to) or anything, I just think the course hadn't had a chance to fully grow in as well whereas 3 Creek was pretty pristine by mid-summer.

As far as Tiger Woods goes, he has bought a lot on the property but I don't know if he has started building anything on it yet.  In fact, he hadn't even visited the property as of mid-July according to the staff members we talked to.  

Interestingly, the billionaires are pretty much kicking the millionaires out of Jackson 30 minutes west over into Victor and Driggs Idaho.  That area used to be nothing much more than potato country, but it now has Headwaters (Gary Stephenson/Stephen Jones/Byron Nelson team design), a new Hale Irwin reversible routing design opening up in 2007, a Greg Norman course just was announced, and there is talk of two others.  Could end up being a decent golf destination although the season is quite short.
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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 04:43:43 PM »
more great pictures Aidan, thanks!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 04:51:40 PM »
Wow, you sure have the west covered, Bill.   :o 8)
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 05:08:04 PM »
Quote from: Aidan Bradley on December 06, 2006, 03:40:40 PM


Wonderfully artistic pictures Aidan.  As always, well done.

Do people care the the bunkering style and movement shown here?

I do not.  The dugout bunkers fore and aft seem overly formalized, the fairway perhaps repetitive.
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 05:31:26 PM »
Cary,
 Perhaps Whitten was miffed Tom's crew didn't run out and dig bunkers on the rightside of the 18th fairway as he suggested in his review?

Left in Ben's awesome picture.



Here's one I don't have permission to post, but for you guys... and in the search for knowledge... here goes...

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2006, 05:39:00 PM »
3 Creek looks like a nice course to play (I have not played it yet), but Ballyneal was pure, unadulterated fun. Adam, wow, great painting. It doesn't get much better than that.
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Mr Hurricane

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2006, 05:50:42 PM »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2006, 06:05:01 PM »
Does Josh Smith have a website or gallery?
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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2006, 06:18:07 PM »
Nick,

Check it out:
http://www.joshuacfsmith.com/intro.html

Josh is a great guy; and a fine artist.
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jeffmingay.com

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2006, 09:02:51 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 06, 2006, 04:34:49 PM
Trumped by a bunch of pictures again!

Cary:  The simple answer to your question is that probably only one or two GOLF DIGEST panelists actually played both courses -- the Best New rankings lack the degree of head-to-head comparison necessary to legitimize them, but by pretending they have a bulletproof formula for judging greatness they skip over that part.

There is another GD panelist I often travel with that went to both 3 Creek and Ballyneal as well.  I don't know what kind of ratings he posted, but I know he liked Ballyneal quite a bit more.  But Tom, that is at least 2 GD panelists that saw both courses.  Who knows if there were more, both are pretty remote.
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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2006, 09:38:45 PM »
Cary,

I know of one instance where a GD rater disliked Ballyneal intensely, giving it a "1" in the aesthetics category.  As a Ballyneal member, I'm hopelessly biased, but for me, a great deal of Ballyneal's appeal is the unique look, a good golf course artfully integrated into the "choppy" sand dunes.  Golf courses built in meadows and forests are common.  I think the rater in question is way off, since I believe aesthetics and beauty are one of Ballyneal's strong suits.

Ballyneal experienced some tough growing conditions during the last season.  It was very hot in May and June.  The course was pretty brown in July and August.  The greens were kept slow this year to ensure proper grow-in.  The fall brought good growing weather, and the course conditions ended on a high note, with hopes of better turf conditions next year.

I've tried to remain fairly quiet about this whole thing, so I don't sound defensive about it.  All of our members just love the place, and that's all that matters.
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2006, 09:58:53 PM »
those pictures by Aidan make comparisons oh so hard. I have not seen one and only seen more than 5 holes of the other but cannot wait to see both. I can say from what I saw at Ballyneal, I am hard pressed to see how any course could beat it out for course of the year.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2006, 10:09:00 PM »


Huh?

While I think some of the pictures look really good, and remind me in a way of the more convex features I've seen from Rees at Olde Kinderhook, I have to say that this one proves that old habits die hard.
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Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2006, 10:32:14 PM »
I feel like John. I didn't want to weigh in on the ranking since I am a member and don't want to seem defensive.  However, I can't see how anyone could use lack of aesthetics as a reason to rank Ballyneal low.  That seems kind of shallow.  That reminds me of someone I heard that was critical of Stone Eagle because he said it looked like the moon.

I mentioned before the two raters I ran into there in August.  They were polite, but you could tell they just didn't get excited about the kind of golf Ballyneal presents to the player.  Doesn't matter in the long run, because I am pleased, my fellow members are pleased and the folks that I love to play the game with are falling all over themselves praising the course.  That is the ranking I care about.

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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v. 3 Creek Ranch
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2006, 10:35:44 PM »
Quote from: John Kirk on December 07, 2006, 09:38:45 PM

I know of one instance where a GD rater disliked Ballyneal intensely, giving it a "1" in the aesthetics category.

a 1?!?!?  now that is something I can never understand

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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!
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