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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
It was fun, I admit it.....
« on: December 02, 2006, 09:42:10 AM »
For all the talk of slowing down greens and adding contours, with which I generally agreed, I had a blast yesterday playing in a member guest at Lochinvar CC, a JN designed exclusive club in Houston with flattish greens rolling, according to my host at 12.5.  They were double cut when I arrived, and I noticed another pass with the greens mowers as I ate lunch.......they may have been faster.

How flat were the greens?  For the most part, flatter than the demand for full size SUV's with gas over $2 per gallon.  I had exactly two putts all day with breaks outside two cup widths.  The entire group may have had 4 more.  The 8th is a modest partial Biaritz, the 10th had a partial shelf.

The reason for the fun?  The greens were so good that I knew if I got it on line, I could make it.  Also, it took just a little shoulder rock to get the ball moving, so the stroke was generally a lot easier. On our first hole, I made 25 footer, it got my confidence up, and I made four more bombs all day.  I only three putted when our team format encouraged me to be aggressive and I overshot the hole. (that is unusual for me!)

Summary: Golf can be just as much fun with "flat and fast" as you imagine it is with slow and rolling.

JN's design took advantage of what he knew would be fast greens with some great greens that put the fear of God in ya.  For example, the 12th had a pond left, and the right half of the green was almost dead flat, while the pond side was all graded at a 2% slope right to the pond (which looked steep for that course) and which was scary if you were putting down hill after playing safe.  

The 14th was a short par 4 with a large, block shaped green that had roll offs front right and back left, so the effective target was an hourglass shape.  In essence, the green contours replaced the surrounding bunkers as hazards on that one.

Several other greens had subtle roll offs a la Pinehurst on one side. With the speeds, and some club grabbing rough, it was imperative to hit chips right to the edge of the top of bank - just short and the ball rolled back to your feet (or the rough line) and long risked going over the green.

BTW, the course is a great routing, changing direction on every hole with triangulation.  Its on a flat Houston site, and the bunkers aren't deep at all, either because of water table, or because JN knew that the proposed membership didn't want them too deep. The course is JN circa 1980, so it has some of those steep bank fw dividers, which I feel dated the place and more importantly, didn't add like they might.  For one thing, they are only 1 foot high. For another, the shadows are lost in the shadows of the Houston pines.

To relate it back to the "Do contoured greens favor bad putters" I know that flat, perfectly maintained greens made a poor putter (me) better for one day.  If Tour pros play greens that good and that flat each week, I think the greens themselves explain some of their putting success.

Overall, it was fun mostly because of the chance to play fast, true, and flat green, which gave me confidence in putting.  Confident in putting?  I don't care who you are, you gotta like that!  


 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 09:54:50 AM »
Jeff,

I think you hit on one of the things I like most about golf - variety.  I think it is fun to play a course with extremely fast greens sometimes as it is to play a course with very undulating greens that are not fast.  

Heck, I played a course one time because people complained how terrible it was, I was just curious and still had fun playing it.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 10:35:11 AM »
That guy Latshaw does get around !  He learned it well from his Dad at Oakmont. Eh ? Johnny Miller !

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 11:09:46 AM »
Jeff,
 I find this type of golf to be completely boring and without interest. That's just my honest opinion.

Good luck on building a flat, featureless and fast golf course. I'm sure your clientele will love it, after all, they don't want to think, just talk...

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2006, 03:18:28 PM »
I'm with Tommy.

If I want to test my stroke, I'll putt on my concrete floor at work. It stimps over 20.

It's like hitting lag shots versus playing pool - no comparison.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2006, 04:14:34 PM »
Jeff,
What did the ladies think of the greens?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2006, 08:37:36 PM »
Fun? Fun? You want fun?

Try Spyglass Hill with something north of 12. I swear the day we played in an NCGA event they were 14.

My partnered birdied the opener after driving into the left trees. Absolutely the best performance I have ever seen on that hole.

Jeff, You may have inadvertantly supplied the answer to the question of "Do uber fast greens identify the better putter?"
Without movement beyond 81/2 inches, you said it yourself, all you had to do was get it on the right line to feel confident. I don't mean to disparage your putting abilities in the least, I mean to point out that you've illustrated the ambiguous nature of the Stimp race. People think they are being challenged more with the greater speeds, when in actuality their egos are the only thing being stroked.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 08:55:35 PM »
Look at the Amateur at Merion !  What an explosion of bang it to the hole !  With great results !  Fast greens with confidence !

Mike_Cirba

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2006, 10:28:09 PM »
I recall playing Glenmaura National near Scranton, PA a few years back.   The greens were in the 11-12 range, yet I never had a putt that broke more than 6 inches.

Jeff, if that's fun, then I'm pretty humorless.  ;)

Compare that to the Country Club of Scranton nearby, where I played with Ian Andrew and where the greens stimped about 8 the day we played.   We had shit-eating grins on all day!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 10:29:35 PM by Mike Cirba »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2006, 10:41:39 PM »
Jeff

Got to disagree with you big time.

I played at Engineers again today and even with punched greens I can't imagine that any course with flat greens can compare to the imagination needed to work your way to the pins on those fallaway greens, tiered greens and sloped greens.

It sounded to me pretty mindless efforts are needed on those greens you played.  Not the best golf to my way of thinking.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 10:42:16 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

Mike_Cirba

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2006, 10:46:20 PM »
Geoff/Jeff,

Thinking of Engineers as a great example, that just brings up my other pet peeve about lifeless greens, no matter how fast they get 'em.

The fact is that flat greens make approach shots boring and thoughtless.   On greens like the 1st at Engineers, if you don't consider very carefully where to place your approach shot, you might be four-putting.   Then, that type of thinking works back to the tee shot, and where to best position that for the most advantageous approach.  

None of that interest exists when the greens are benign and pancake flat.   Then, all that matters is how close you can get on your approach, from any side of the green, front, back, left, right......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Geoffrey Childs

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 11:06:05 PM »
Mike

Bingo!!! How right you are.  Must be a lefty thing  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 11:48:44 PM »
Mike

Bingo!!! How right you are.  Must be a lefty thing  ;)

Geoffrey,

Yes, it's amazing how correct you are, as well!  

If only the rest of the world would listen to us!  ;)  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2006, 08:04:58 AM »

Summary: Golf can be just as much fun with "flat and fast" as you imagine it is with slow and rolling.

While that may be true, the cost, effort, opportunity and risk in attaining those conditions are an impediment to their coming into existance.

The pressure on superintendents becomes unreasonable.

The risk of losing the greens..... great.

The cost ..... great

And, if Mother Nature isn't co-operating, it's impossible.

But, if the stars line up right, they can be fun, flat or contoured.
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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:It was fun, I admit it.....
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2006, 09:30:47 AM »
 8)

You've taken quite a beating on this topic from most so far..  

But you didn't mention the rather "blustery" (for Houston) weather conditions experienced during play on Fri.. vs the 80°F we had on Weds.. did you play a practice round on Thurs when front came through?  

hmmmm.  comments comments comments

.. no imagination or thought needed tee to green
.. boredom
.. how close your approach only
.. fall-away & tier green features only types of places of interest or challenge
.. slow enabling more fun than flat enabling
.. anything but flat breeds great golf experi
.. more challenge or more stimp.. can or can't have both ?

.. fun is a personal thing, apparently more conditional with  some than others..  

I assume the greens were quite difficult to hold with those speeds and required good approach shot placement..  Can you comments on how enabled the speed was by the "going dormant bermuda"?.  

I assume you gave no thought what-so-ever to risk-reward in this competition?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2006, 09:31:22 AM by Steve Lang »
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