[Dan Kelly]

Gentlemen --

Inspired by Mr. Kavanaugh's recent thread ...

I suggest that, the next time you play your home course -- or any course you know well -- you play it from the "ladies' " tees.

Which holes are ruined? Which holes are improved? And, in either case, why?

Is there anything to be learned, from playing from the front tees, about designing for the back tees?

Report back here, please. It's going to be a long winter where I live, and I shall feed off your reports.

Dan

P.S. Apologies to Mr. Kavanaugh. I should have said not "front" tees -- but "uppity-uppest."

[Doug Wright]

Will do Dan. I'm just a few years from playing there full-time anyway...

[Mike Salinetti]

As a golf course superintendent, I am often asked by the female membership to play their tees so I can get a feel for any problems as they see it. It's usually a great confidence booster for my game.

[Gary Slatter]

we played the first 72 hole club championship at Mad River (Cupp 1991) from all four tees, starting on the forward and ending on the back. Good success and fun too!
Did it convince some members to move up a set for their normal games (NO).

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In this country you'ld be hauled before the committee if you played from tha ladies' tees.  They are their property every bit as much as the medal tees are the members' and no visitor may consider playing from them.  Of course, if you say you're a GCA regular you'll be put off the championship tees automatically - well, you might be told to stuff it, but you might be lucky.  Nick Leefe makes the point that if you want to play Alwoodley as MacKenzie intended it to be played, play it off the ladies' tees.  Who would be brave enough (and humble enough) to do so?

[Bill_McBride]

Mark - with hickories?

[cary lichtenstein]

I play the forward tees, white, once a week now and enjoy it very much.

[Lloyd_Cole]

My old 9 holer - Beaver Brook in Western Mass play the club championship over 2 days, 27 each day, medal, front and championship. I invariably score worse from the fronts than the back as I'm not used to the angles involved and by the time we reach the long course I'm done... Comfort zone is what it's about on the home course, be it the front tees or whichever you are used to. It is not simply easier to hit a 9 iron into a green you are used to hitting a 5 iron to.. oftentimes the shot simply won't feel right.

[Tom_Doak]

It's a great exercise.  Many will discover that the course is not nearly as much easier from far forward as they thought ... because wild shots into trouble can still happen from the front tees, and because the short game has such a great effect on one's score.  

If the experiment is repeated, some will discover that they CAN score quite a bit better from the front if they play very conservatively (irons off tees where there is severe trouble in the fairway).  This is a lesson that ought to be taken to the back tees, but few pick up on.

Last but not least, on nearly every course there will be one or two holes that are much more interesting from the front tee than from the back tee ... proof that architects get too wrapped up in length.

[JohnV]

Every 4th of July we play a Red, White and Blue day and play holes 1-6 from the Reds, 7-12 from the Whites (which are almost the same as the reds) and 13-18 from the blues which is where we usually play.  There are a set of Gold tees behind them that would be the blues on most courses and are too tough for most of us.  Some holes become drivable, but they are still interesting in different ways as they have new trouble in play.

[Joe Hancock]

Dan Kelly,

I did as you suggested and played the front tees this afternoon. While it indeed was a great learning exercise, I only played 7 holes before the cold wind blowing up my skirt became intollerable.

Joe

[Jim Nugent]

By playing the ladies tees do you get an idea of how the course will play from the regular tees, if technology is not reined in?  Do you get a better sense of how the bombers NOW play the course?  

[Mike_Cirba]

I think one of the most challenging parts of playing the front tees is simply that it leaves many less than full shots into the greens, unless one clubs down from the tee.   Personally, I'd rather be hitting a full shot because I've yet to master the Tiger skip once and stop dead half shot.  

[Bob_Huntley]

I have said it on here more than once, if you can't shoot par from the front what on earth are you doing going to the backs?

Bob

[Tim Pitner]

I have said it on here more than once, if you can't shoot par from the front what on earth are you doing going to the backs?

I understand the sentiment, Bob, but the problem with this argument is that (sorry, lawyers' phrase), it proves too much.  You might not be able to find a set of tees, within reason, from which I'll shoot par with any regularity.  And, while my handicap isn't real low, it's not real high either.  I think the better test is to choose a set of tees from which can you shoot a reasonable score and not hold anyone up.  

[Ron Farris]

I often play from the Forward tees with my children.  It is great fun and the shots are quite interesting with many drivable par 4 holes.  The par five holes have green complexes that really have small targets for big shots.  

[Neil Regan]

Bob,

  I still remember how much we enjoyed the circle tees that day with George and Christian. Remember the turbo boosts that came into play ? Remember the short approaches that were so very interesting ? Remember the record scores ? ( Well, two out of three ain't bad.)

Neil

[Adam Clayman]

We played Wild Horse yesterday from the silvers. 5400ish
One negative aspect that was clear was that the routing wasn't optimal for walking to these forward tees. Otherwise, all the other aspects were fully interfaced. Sure some of the bunkers that come into play from farther back were reduced to Top shots. However many others came significantly into play.

The allure of "going for it" is also raised when playing forward.

I especially like it when forward tees allow for certain blindness opportunities that are missed from back tees or higher ground.

[Dan Kelly]

Last but not least, on nearly every course there will be one or two holes that are much more interesting from the front tee than from the back tee ... proof that architects get too wrapped up in length.

Tom --

When you have found those holes on your own courses (I'm sure those who've played them are curious which holes they are), have you ever suggested to the owner that he (or, of course, she) abandon the other tees? If so: What was the reaction?

Dan

[Aaron Katz]

I have said it on here more than once, if you can't shoot par from the front what on earth are you doing going to the backs?

Bob

I really think that choosing the correct set of tees really has more to do with driving length than anything else.  What I hate to see is guys who drive the ball 285 going from the 6200 yard tees -- invariably they have nothing but wedges and pitches into the par fours.  Even if they have crappy wedge games and end up shooting 90, do you really think they have chosen the correct set of tees?

[Jason Topp]

At my course, moving to the middle tees improves the par threes and fives.  The par fours generally are worse.

The fives improve because reaching them in two changes from a remote possibility to something I should do if I hit two solid shots.  

The par threes improve because, from the back tees, one is 185 uphill, 199 flat and 217 downhill.  In the right wind, all three play nearly the same length, although the ideal shot into each green varies.  From the middle tees, the holes are around 150, 180, and 215, which to me are simply more enjoyable shots to hit and present greater variety.  

The par fours are generally worse, because the resulting approach is nearly always a wedge, and instead of trying to hit a specific slope to gain the best position off the tee or propel the ball forward, I just try and get it as close to the green as possible.

[Dan Kelly]

At my course, moving to the middle tees improves the par threes and fives.  The par fours generally are worse.

Jason --

What about from the front tees?

Dan

[Dan Kelly]

Ask your daughter.

Jason --

Asking my daughter wouldn't satisfy my curiosity.

It's my hunch (just a hunch!) that we men could learn some interesting things about golf course architecture -- in particular, how to build interesting (for men) golf courses that aren't 7,000 yards long, or even 6,500 yards long -- if we played the courses we have from shorter distances.

Perhaps others will agree, and will give it a try.

Pedantically (?),

Dan

[Greg Tallman]

As noted in an earlier post the professional staff here at Cabo del Sol held a 36 event played from the ladies tees.

-10 professionals of varying talent participated
-Bonus pool for breaking 60
-Penalty for exceeding par in a round

-Nobody received money from the bonus pool
-A few had to pony up penalty money
-Good time had by all

-Discovered some great par 3s
-Experienced more thought provoking driver situations when such club was chosen
-Hardly anyone played "smart" rther opting for too many all or nothing type shots which provided much of the fun (especially given the penalty factor)

Highly suggested for your regular weekend game.  

[Doug Ralston]

I know my limitations. I see no reason to play so far back that I cannot reach a par-4 in 2 shots [if i WILL or not is problematic, of course, but I insist it be possible]. I hit a good drive 190 - 200yd. My 5-wood makes maybe 175 on a nice flight. So 360-370 is my upper limit. That generally translates to not playing over 5600 - 5700 yds.

If this means FRONT tees, I am not too proud to play them [and often do]. The good news is, with front tee comes the occasional 280 yd par-4. That's 3-wood and PW for me. See what I mean?

One of the things I like about Hurdzan courses [and I am certain others consider it too] is that he seems to keep most of the 'features' in play for we short hitters too. I have played a lot of his courses and as yet have not been sorry.

So; do not be proud. It is not 'LADIE's' tees, it is FORWARD tees. Hey, are they told they may not play from 'MEN's' tees?

Just a little anecdote: I was at Fox Run [slope 143] and we were teeing from the front. A group of 4 young men teeing from the tips are making derogatory noises. THEN they teed off. Ground balls, duck hooks, and crys of rage rang out! I didn't even give them a look of pity [I am, of course, way too classy for that]  . But I assure you I could have beaten any of the four from any tee, and poor a golfer as I am.

Golf is fun in so many ways.

Doug

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