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Jason Blasberg

Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« on: November 12, 2006, 02:43:44 PM »
I had the pleasure of playing the storied Timber Point yesterday for the first time in years.  

Based upon what I've learned in D. Wexler's Missing Links, there are 12 original Alison holes.  While the landscape has changed dramtically on those holes, losing many sandy wash areas and generally being over irrigated many are still impressive and the Blue nine with 6 Alison holes is still my favorite public nine holes on Long Island.  

The County recently put a few million into the course to raise many water logged fairways by as much as 3 feet in spots.  Timber Point remains a handsome piece of wind swept linksland.

I'll try to document each of the 12 original Alison holes as there are 6 on the current Red nine and 6 on the Blue nine.

Here are some to start things off:


A look across the wind swept land from Alison’s 12th tee to his 13th green.

 


The attractive and difficult one shot 12th when the wind is up, playing only 145 from the tips one must control the distance of their tee shot as Alison provided ample width.  This green originally sat on an island of sand and was a thing of beauty  (Gibralter looms in the distance, Alison’s 3 par 15th)
   



Where a spit of land used to exist is now a local marina:



Left of Alison’s 13th tee nature still abounds at TP:

 


Still majestic the clubhouse is visible from most of the property:



Looking backward from the tee on Gibralter:



The most impressive and daunting shot at TP

View from the back tee:



From the forward tee:





 

From short left of the green:



As we walked off the green on Alison’s 5 par 8th we caught a glimpse of yesteryear when TP was in its glory:





Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2006, 03:59:52 PM »
   Great stuff, Jason, and an incredible coincidence. Yesterday, I was in the mood for an archeological expedition as well and decided I was going to either Timber Point or Bethpage Green, the first course at BP originally laid out by Devereux Emmet 13 years before AW built the Black.

We chose the latter but your pics have enticed me to continue and have motivated me to make sure I see TP before winter sets in. Last time was about ten years ago and then it was only to attend a wedding - I have yet to play it.

Thanks for sharing.

Which 9 is Gibralter located on?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 04:00:17 PM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2006, 04:09:08 PM »
Gene:

Make sure you play the Blue and Red nines, Blue has Gibraltar and 5 other Alison originals.  While the sandy wash areas are mostly gone they've done great work raising the fairways so they drain and what used to be mush in many spots is good playable ground.  

The Red is the inland section with the other 6 originals, including Alison's par 5 4th and par 4 5th, the 5th is generally harder to make 4 on than the 4th!

Skip the white entirely, while it has a couple good holes it's the new and cramned 9 holes.


Regarding the Green course what was the club's original name as it was built by Emmet as a private club?  (hint there's a nice NYC hotel with the same name)

Just call ahead to make sure the Blue is in rotation.  
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 04:09:24 PM by Jason Blasberg »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2006, 04:50:44 PM »
Jason

Thanks for those photos.  Like Gene, I've never been out to TImber Point because I thought there wasn't enought left that was worth visiting.  Looks like I was way off base. I'll get out there shortly.

Gene- up for a game sometime soon?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2006, 05:33:39 PM »
Jason

Thanks for those photos.  Like Gene, I've never been out to TImber Point because I thought there wasn't enought left that was worth visiting.  Looks like I was way off base. I'll get out there shortly.

Gene- up for a game sometime soon?

Dr,

Jason has posted the best of the worst. The holes along the water were always good and look even better now, but it does not change the fact that a 27 hole golf course sits on the old 18 hole land. However, it has probably been 15 years, so trust Jason for more input on the non-water holes. However if I had to choose a walk down memory lane day between Lido and Timber Point, TP would be the easy winner.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2006, 05:38:46 PM »
In all fairness to Lido, it's not the same walk down memory lane and none of the property is the same.

At least TP is on the same exact site and 12 holes as originally routed are intact.

My second career, career goal is to now get into politics, become the Suffolk County Executive and restore TP to get a US Open.  It could happen some day!

Phil_the_Author

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2006, 05:40:37 PM »
Jason,

You asked what the name of the original Bethpage golf course was.

When Benjamin Yoakum built the Lenox Hills Golf Club, he had in mind a community golf club for the use of those who bought homes in the Lenox Hills area that he was developing. With the way many golf course/housing projects have come into being in the last few decades, he was way ahead of his time.

Yoakum died one month and four days after the stock market crashed in 1929 (natural causes) and his family was left with a great deal of money, land, good stock and a great deal of worthless ones as well. They were also left a golf club - Lenox Hills.

Though a private club, he was the sole owner of the property. The family faced the decision of what to do with it as they both didn't want to operate it as well as desired to see as much funds from it as possible.

New York State, through the Long Island State Parks Commission, founded just a few years earlier to obtain large tracts of land for the newly organizing state park system, had already been talking to Yoakum about purchasing both the golf course and another 100 acres of property adjacent to it that he owned. They also had their eyes on another nearly 900 acres that bordered the Yoakum property. Eventuelly, in 1931, a lease was signed, and purchase was finally made in 1934.

As part of the 1931 lease, the golf course, much to the protests of the members of the club, was opened as a New York State public golf course with the new name of Bethpage Golf Club.

When plans were made to build the new courses, two new holes were created for the course (holes 1 & 18) so that all courses would start and finish from the planned new clubhouse, and the entire course itself was renovated.

As for Timber Point... a number of years ago when I was researching the history of Bethpage State Park, I came across a reference to a "Lot consisting of stack of papers, photographs, ephemera, drawings, blueprints for golf course(s), clubhouse, photographs and other items - Long Island State Parks Commission, 1930-1936..." in the New York State archives.

I traveled from Georgia to Albany excited at the prospect at possibly having found actual blueprints for the Bethpage project as that was the ONLY golf course building project done by the Long Island State Parks Commission during those years.

I was both deeply disappointed and absolutely stunned to find that the "golf course blueprints" were for the original TIMBER POINT GOLF CLUB!

They have notes in both pencil and ink on each page and so must have been the actual set of working drawings for the project!

The layout was amazing and brilliant and I would give anything to have been able to see how it turned out. I am convinced that it was one of the great courses ever built based upon those drawings.

They sit there quietly in an box simply marked "golf course drawings" despite my attempting to alert the curator as to their importance both in person at the time and with a follow-up letter.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 05:42:32 PM »
Here's Alison's par 3 third:










Mike_Sweeney

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 05:44:33 PM »
At least TP is on the same exact site and 12 holes as originally routed are intact.


If I may ask, where did you get that info from?

Are there any original greens out there?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 05:45:57 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 05:51:45 PM »
my info is from Wexler's Missing Links, some old phots, and a lot of salty dog caddies I grew up caddying with at Southward Ho who looped at TP when it was still private in the 60s.  

Many of the greens are intact to some extent, although shrunk to peanuts I imagine.  

I also know that the original 11th green is still there and being used as the 1st hole of the Blue nine but the hole was butchered and turned on it's head so it plays from a totally different direction.  

TP is not beyond restoring, in fact, it could be done.  The largest task that I can see is restoring the massive waste bunkering and fighting the drainage problem.  Although the property has most noticeably changed by additional draining ponds that overwhelm some holes.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 06:13:18 PM »
Geoffrey:

    Would love to tee it up with you at TP. Neil R. I'm sure would join us. However, Black closes after next weekend and it's been 5 years since I've walked those hallowed fairways, as a golfer that is.

Send IM, email or call on cell on Monday to make arrangements for both.

              Gene
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 06:14:53 PM »
Jason:

    Why don't you blow some people's minds and tell all what the green fee was for your day at TP?
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 07:39:51 PM »
Gene:

For three of us it was $67.  Two county residents were $18 a piece and I paid the high freight at $31!

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2006, 07:40:57 PM »
Phil that's an incredible story and it certainly appears there is ample historical evidence to guide a restoration effort.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2006, 09:01:02 PM »
A visit to Timber Point is simultaneously exhilerating and saddening.

There are some wonderful holes out there, and the skeletons of quite a few others.   All of the land that Alison used on his storied 18 holes is still there, but now it houses 27 mostly mediocre, cramped ones.

If William Mitchell wasn't already quite dead, he should be hung for his work there.   ;)

If ever a course in NY cried out for a full restoration to a course that with proper care and feeding could be a world-famous course, TP is it.  

It's almost as if Lido was still there on its original property, but was now 27 holes with 15 of them built by Ed Ault.

Thanks for the pictures, Jason.   Sadly, it seems that it will never be financially or politically feasible for the now municipal course to be restored to its former glory, but it is nice to know that holes like Gibralter still exist, however poorly evolved.   You can see some great pictures of the original in Geoff Shackelford's "Golden Age of Golf Design" book, including showing what is now the 12th sitting in an island of sand.



 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 09:04:01 PM by Mike Cirba »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2006, 11:00:03 AM »
Alison's par 5, 4th hole, a shell of its former self:









The green is still very cool:




Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2006, 11:02:59 AM »
Alison's 4 par 5th, playing the opposite direction as the 5 par 4th, the 5th usually plays into the wind and is harder to make 4 than the par 5, 4th!






 

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2006, 11:09:01 AM »
Alison's stout 3 par 6th, playing 198yds into a prevailing wind I hit a solid 2-iron yesterday pin high to a back pin.  

This hole still has solid greenside bunkering.









The par 3, 3rd greensite is visable in the background as the front nine 3 pars play in opposite directions, 50 yards different in length.  I hit 8-iron on 3 and 2-iron on 6!

TEPaul

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2006, 12:47:12 PM »
I had a nice conference call conversation the other day with Shinnecock's long time head pro who is retiring this year. He grew up at The Creek where his dad was the head pro for years and I believe he said he went to Timber Point before going on to Shinnecock a long time ago. If I talk to him again I'll be sure to ask him what Timber Point was like in the old days.

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2006, 06:08:33 PM »
Folks will find this very depressing, but wanted to share this story from my Dad.

Back when the Timber Point club was waning, Suffolk County started sniffing around to condemn the club (another emminent domain issue).

However, there was an opportunity for an investor group to come in and purchase the property. I believe this was in the early 1970's but not sure. In short, they thought about keeping the club operating under a new ownership entity, selling some lots for Condos and/or single family homes.

At the end of the day, they couldn't get the group together and the County was very adamant to condemn the property for public use.

Oh well! Was great to see a few holes still remaining!

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2006, 10:46:31 PM »
Alison's 7th:














T_MacWood

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2006, 08:38:43 AM »
I've been out there and its fairly easy to identify what is and isn't left of Alison.

Watching a group of typical publinx golfers - wife beaters, high-tops and rented pull cart - strolling up the 18th toward the old stately clubhouse, once the haven of multi-millionaires, was truly ironic.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 08:45:26 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2006, 09:25:53 AM »
Even if the County could recapture Alison's bunkering on his holes that exist it would be an incredible improvement.  With the improved drainage on the Blue nine I think it's possible.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2006, 09:55:11 AM »
Wow, what a place. Thanks for sharing all the pictures and the information about Timber Point, Jason. It has been very interesting to hear about this course and its history. I just can't get enough. I spent a lot of time on Long Island and playing golf and I have never heard of it.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Timber Point -- Glimpses of Glory Past
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2006, 11:37:23 PM »
Alison's 8th, a 5 par:














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