[Patrick_Mucci]

cross the moat.

Why does there seem to be an absence of moat like features, be they grass, sand or water, fronting greens, especially on short holes ?

I don't mean ponds or streams, but moats, narrow, deep structures to scare and challenge the golfer on their approach.

Features with sufficient depth to obscure the putting surface from their base.

For purposes of the discussion, assume that drainage is not an issue.

[JESII]

I think those same space aliens have sucked Pat's brain out too....


What the hell are you talking about?

[JESII]

I can hoenstly say I have never played a course and thought, "What this hole needs is a moat..."

Generally what most courses need is "more cowbell!"

Absolutely priceless. My new tag line.

[Gib_Papazian]

Patrick,

You are thinking about holes like a "Macdonald Short?"

Like #17 at Piping Rock?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has noone ever played the first hole at Westhampton ?

CBM's, SR's and CB's "short" holes have that type of feature.

It's a demand on aerial play

The old 14th at GCGC had a similar feature although the depth wasn't far below green level.

I'm also trying to recall the grass moat that I encountered just short of a green.

[Matt_Cohn]

Like 18 at Oak Hill?

[tonyt]

Yale fortress hole.

[JMorgan]

As in Augusta #12?  

[Mike Benham]

In another thread this week on where Carnoustie sits in our personal rankings, I thought they one feature that I did not like was the cement or stoneline manufactured waterways that wind through the last few holes.

I assume that these were installed to prevent uncontrolled flooding on  these holes but it definetly is a natural feature.

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Morgan,

# 12 becomes a pond where it fronts the green.
I was thinking of a narrower feature.

Tony,

Doesn't the 12th at Yale have a deep fronting bunker, rather than the fortress hole, # 7 ?

Matt Cohn,

Does # 18 at Oak Hill have a fronting moat or depression in the fairway ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Does the 1st hole at The Old Course qualify?

Burn: The hole is named after the Swilcan Burn which loops round to guard the front edge of the green.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 Pat,

How bout the 2nd at GC?

You definitly have to cross a "Bottomless Pit".

[Dan Moore]

Like this?

135 yd par 3

[paul cowley]

I know it might be repetitive but just to keep the record straight..... at the Patriot course in Greenwood SC, you play across a moat three times culminating with the final crossing on #18....from which one has a definitely obscured shot to the green as you are directly below....about 35' or so below.

Someday I will learn to post pics....probably about the same time Pat or TP do .
....anyway, it really is a good course that gets little attention because of little play....something time and patience will remedy.  

[JMorgan]

I think this is an example of what Patrick means (and speaking of the Palmetto State, Mr. Cowley).  Green and moat in bottom right corner:



Hole #9 at Links at Stone Ferry, Hollywood, SC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Shaffer,

Yes.

I was thinking of that feature, even though it's very narrow.

M Shea Sweeney,

The 2nd at GCGC is far too wide.

The 1st at Westhampton is a perfect example.

Dan Moore,

That looks more like an elevated green, rather than a fairway with a ditch or moat fronting the green.

James Morgan,

That more closely resembles what I was referencing.

But, I was referencing features that look man made.
Features where you clearly understand what the architect meant to present to the golfer.

Take a stream and expand it to 20 feet across and that would make a nice moat.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

Help me here. Isn't there a hole at Turnberry, somewhere on the back nine with something like a moat in front of the green. My memory fades me here.

Bob

[Andrew Thomson]

 

[wsmorrison]

Bob,

The 16th on the Ailsa Course (409 par 4), Wee Burn, has a burn fronting the green.  It is not so wee, in fact.  It is rather deep and fairly wide as well.  

[JMorgan]

I was waiting for Phil to chime in, but he's probably doing something much more productive than I.  

Here it is, Patrick: Tilly's _Moat Hole at Galen Hall

The green on the Stono #9 seen above is blind from the center and right side of the approach because of the burn BTW, which certainly seemed intentional when I played it.      

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat,

I don't think it is a terrible idea, but to be honest, personally I do not care for it. (As a Water Hazard)

Maybe if it is natural, but like you said more in the man made category. I really don't know if I like the fact of putting a 5 foot wide say 30 yard long 'moat' in front of a green. In fact I know I don't. (Again with Water)

Most people on this website might not know of this example. But at Douglaston Golf Club, NYC muni, while playing the course growing up they put in exactly what Westhampton has on their first hole. I always remember thinking how stupid this was.
When it would rain the creek would overflow. I always felt it looked out of place, slowed up play, and never really came in to play.

I think that if you are going to go this route an architect has to make the hazard bigger or esle the hazard will not affect the player as much. The first at Westhampton really isn't a huge factor in my mind when choosing a club. I feel the hazard has to be a bit bigger in order to really 'catch' the players eye.

On the other hand I might like the first hole at Westhampton better if that 'moat' was filled with sand or even alittle deeper and grass.

[Kyle Harris]

Here's the other Tillie Moat Hole at Abington Club (former Old York Road).



Tillie had designed it at the end of a short par 4, but today it plays as a mid length par 3.

[Dave Bourgeois]

Pat,

Did 18 at Inwood get you thinking about this? Lots of history over that moat!

 

[Matt_Cohn]

Pat,

Yes it does! But you seem to be thinking of features that are more obviously an "architect vs. golfer" sort of thing. That's cool.

Matt

[Forrest Richardson]

Here is the castle wall you dare not come too close to after crossing the moat and secure the damsel.

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