News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Pete Garvey

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Works of Seth Raynor
« on: November 02, 2006, 09:04:26 AM »
Good morning to everyone on GCA.  I have enjoyed reading the posts on this page for many years.  I finally took the time to register with Ran and glad that I did.  It truly is a pleasure to "chime in".  

I am currently the head golf professional at the only Ross course in the state of Kentucky and had the pleasure of witnessing Ron Prichard as he transformed our course back to greatness.  The past five years has been quite a learning experience for me as far as classic golf courses are concerned.  With the help of Brad Klein I have been able to absorb much about the life and works of Donald Ross and with this has come a craving to learn more about the other great golf course architects of the classic era.  

Growing up in Cincinnati I had the opportunity to caddie and play the Camargo Club a few times.  This is an outstanding Seth Raynor design.   I would like to learn more about Raynor.  My question:  Is there any particular book that explores the life and architectural philosophy of Seth Raynor and is it still available?  

Also, just for fun, please list your favorite 10 Raynor designed courses.  

Thanks you.
Logged

Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2006, 09:21:24 AM »
"The Evangelist of Golf" by George Bahto.

Favorite (read: best) Raynor courses:

1.) Sunningdale, Scarsdale, NY  ;D
2.) Fishers Island
3.) Yale
4 - 10) pick 'em
Logged

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2006, 09:23:23 AM »
Pete,

Read George Bahto's biography of Charles Blair Macdonald who was Raynor's mentor, The Evangelist of Golf. The drawings of National Golf Links of America alone are worth the purchase price.

If I can be of any more help feel free to contact me directly.

Regards,

Anthony Pioppi
Executive Director,
Chief Bunker Raker
Seth Raynor Society
Apioppi@earthlink.net
Logged

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2006, 09:54:02 AM »
Welcome Pete. Great to have you here. I'm not aware of anything Raynor wrote, but since he was mentored by Macdonald, Scotland's gift , Golf is a must. I second what Pioppi mentioned about Bahto's book and he's a great source of info in regards to Raynor. I've never played any of Raynor's courses so my list doesn't have any experience to back it up, but here it goes, in no particular order.

1. Fisher's Island
2. Camargo
3. Shoreacres
4. Yale
5. Yeaman's Hall
Logged
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2006, 10:29:26 AM »
Welcome Pete-

Could you post some before and after images of your course? I could help you with that if you need assistance.

Logged

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2006, 11:14:54 AM »
Welcome Pete, one could email George and/or Gib about how the book on Raynor is coming. I am not sure where it stands. However The Evangelist of Golf is great. I treasure the rounds at Metairie CC and Mountain Lake to breath that wonderful air one finds flowing around and through a Raynor course. I am counting the days to the Punchbowl and Redan at Mountain Lake.
Logged

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2006, 11:19:29 AM »
Hey, Pete. Long time! Heard lots of good things about your club's re-do.

Fischer's Island, Yale, Camargo, Shoreacres, Fairfield.

Welcome and remember to keep your humor about you when visiting this site!
Logged
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2006, 05:46:23 PM »
Pete,

A good start would be to join the Seth Raynor Society. They have annual meetings at Raynor Courses. Check out their web site:

http://www.sethraynorsociety.org/
Logged
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Gerry B

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2006, 12:22:56 AM »
as mentioned -george bahto's book and the raynor society are good reference points

played many raynor courses and the following should be seen  / played

fishers island
yale
shoreacres
chicago golf club- he did the re-do in the 1920's
lookout mountain
camargo
fox chapel
yeaman's hall
country club of charleston

Logged

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2006, 02:03:38 AM »
Raynor courses are really hard to beat.  In fact, someone give me 3 courses you would love to play by the same designer that can beat Fishers, Yale, Shoreacres (ok-  maybe 3 of McKenzie's gems).  
    No one has mentioned Monterey Peninsula Dunes-  isn't it a Raynor design even though he didn't finish it?  
Logged

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2006, 09:44:16 AM »
Are there any Raynor Courses that are public?

Tillinghast - Bethpage
MacKenzie - Pasatiempo
Logged
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

wsmorrison

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2006, 10:37:05 AM »
Wayne,

Here are more than 3 that I think surpass your proposed courses:

Shinnecock Hills
Merion
Indian Creek
Kittansett
Cascades
TCC in Brookline and Pepper Pike
Huntingdon Valley
Lancaster CC
Philadelphia Country
Rolling Green

In addition, there's Manufacturers, Lehigh, Merion West and Atlantic City CC

If you limit me to 3 (and wish to disallow Merion and TCC in Brookline since they are each only about 60% Flynn)

I would choose:

Shinnecock Hills
Kittansett
Huntingdon Valley/Lancaster/Rolling Green/Indian Creek (take your pick)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 10:37:43 AM by Wayne Morrison »
Logged

Kyle Harris

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2006, 10:43:04 AM »
Pete,

Mountain Lake is a great Florida Raynor. Mike Sweeney wrote an excellent In My Opinion on the restoration work there.

Here's some pictures:

1st Hole: Double Plateu


5th Hole: Biarritz


9th Hole: Short
Logged

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2006, 12:28:33 PM »
Kyle, keep them coming. I need a redan fix this morning.
Logged

Kyle Harris

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2006, 12:49:22 PM »
Tiger,

There you go. From the back left.



The appealing approach to the Par 5 8th.

Logged

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 01:09:50 PM »
Bill

Re: North Palm Beach CC

It's been totally bulldozed and remade by Nicklaus Design and will reopen in a few weeks.

Steve
Logged
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 03:04:47 PM »
Thanks Kyle, One of the great things about the Redan at Mountain is its location on the course. It falls right after the halfway hut, giving one the opportunity to sit there and watch shot after shot. Or in my case one time play about 4 or maybe more shots to the hole late one day. I can play that hole over and over. It is great fun much like the 2nd shot on 4 at Spyglass
Logged

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2006, 08:19:15 AM »
One of the lesser known Raynor tracts is Elkridge in Baltimore.  It has gotten recent notoriety because of its purported racial exclusionary practices (see Baltimore articles on Gov candidate Michael Steele).  It is not one of the best Raynor's but it does have 4-5 wonderful holes - the best hole being the 13th Barritz.  This is as good any of the other Raynor Barritz’ I have seen.  Silva is quietly restoring the place.  Thoughts?

JC
Logged

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2006, 08:37:28 AM »
Logged
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2006, 10:22:50 AM »
Jonathan,

Part of the problem with Elkridge is that the original Raynor 17 and 18 is now the driving range.  They bought land and created a new 6, 7 and 8 which do not blend with the rest of the course - IMHO.  Silvia has done a great job of restoring the greens and thinning out the trees.
Logged
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tom Roewer

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2006, 12:37:40 PM »
Tiger: It's nice to know a kindred spirit is here.  I agree there is nothng much like the rarified air @ both Metairie and Mountain Lake.  Have you been to Metairie since it reopened?  I'd like to know how they are doing.   And Kyle thanks for the pics, and I hope your MLCC employment is going well.
Logged

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2006, 01:36:55 PM »
How about George's Stonebridge on LI?

Not the greatest site for a course that ever was available to Raynorfy, but a fun attempt at a Raynor imitation to be sure.

-Brad

Logged
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

TEPaul

Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2006, 01:49:58 PM »
I don't know, I think there has to be a lot more explained about how Macdonald and Raynor worked together in those early years and how Raynor worked apart from Macdonald in the second half of his careerr that ended in 1926.

We went to their graves last weekend in Southampton with the help of Gene Greco. There in a space about 30 yards by 20 yards are buried Raynor, Macdonald and Whigam.

Nowhere in the world can you find three architectural minds that close together in death. The question remains, in my mind, though, exactly how they worked together when they were alive.

It was a pretty poignant moment standing there in that graveyard with those three guys that close. We probably would've lingered a while longer but Wayne tried to piss on Macdonald's grave and we had to leave. ;)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 01:52:19 PM by TEPaul »
Logged

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2006, 02:08:28 PM »
In response to Wayne Freeman's statement about another architects 3 works (besides Dr. Mackenzie) that are comparable to Raynor's Fisher's Island, Yale and Shoreacres.

Tillinghast (take your pick)

Winged Foot West
San Francisco Golf Club
Somerset Hills
Baltusrol (Upper or Lower)
Baltimore CC East
Bethpage Black



Thomas

Riviera
Bel Air
Los Angeles CC (North)


Ross (again, take your pick)

Pinehurst #2
Seminole
Wannamoisett
Plainfield
Aronimink
Worcester
Essex
Brae Burn


Colt

Sunningdale
Swinley Forest
Rye
St. Georges Hill
Pine Valley (assisting Crump)
Royal Portrush (I know, it's a revision)


And I would concur w/ Wayne Morrison 's assesments of Flynn's body of work. Obviously this all subjective and I by no means mean to imply that these courses are superior to Raynor's, whose work I happen to admire. I would also throw Camargo into the Raynor list of courses.  :)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 02:19:30 PM by David Stamm »
Logged
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Works of Seth Raynor
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2006, 02:21:47 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on November 06, 2006, 01:49:58 PM
 

  We probably would've lingered a while longer but Wayne tried to piss on Macdonald's grave and we had to leave. ;)


Tom, I'm still trying to stop laughing! ;D ;D ;D
Logged
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up