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Scott Szabo

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Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« on: October 30, 2006, 03:54:41 PM »
Last month I had the pleasure of playing Wild Horse, which is an annual outing for many of us in these parts.  I noticed a letter posted in the clubhouse informing members that the golf course staff was having difficulty maintaining firm conditions through the green.  Areas immediately in front of the greens seemed noticeably softer than in the past, changing the playability of the course dramatically.

This got me thinking.  

How difficult is it to maintain uniform, firm and fast playing sources for golf course superintendents?

How much does it detract from the enjoyability of the course if these conditions are not maintained as the architect intended?  

For example, Ballyneal was designed to play under these conditions.  I played it in May and it had not reached these conditions at that time.  I'm sure it will be a totally different golf course under the desired playing conditions.

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Mark Chaplin

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 05:22:26 PM »
Scott - I understand what your saying but surely the weather has to have a huge impact on any chance of being F&F. I'm a member of a top UK links course and this is the first year in my memory we've had more than 3 months of F&F conditions. OK so we never get casual water or soft ground but pure dry and dusty links conditions are still only with us for a short part of the year.

For me the diversity of conditions is all part of the enjoyment and challenge of the game.

Mark
Cave Nil Vino

Scott Szabo

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 09:20:02 PM »
I understand that the weather plays a big part in course conditions.  But, is there anything, not factoring in the weather, that can cause a course to play differently than intended?

Are there any other significant factors that superintendents face in keeping the playability as it was designed?  IMHO, course conditions go along way to allowing the golfer a chance to experience the course as the architect had intended.  

I've never played any of the Bandon courses, but can you imagine playing any of those with soft, slow conditions?  How differently would the courses play than they were intended?  

What if, over time, the turf changed a bit and made firm and fast more difficult to achieve on a regular basis?  Would someone's opinion as to the "greatness" of a course change?
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jon Wiggett

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 06:48:41 PM »
Fast and firm obviously depends to a great extent on the weather. After a period of prolonged rainfall even the best courses will soften up some what. However if the maintenance program is geared to keeping enough air in the root zone, the thatch is kept to a minimum and deep root growth is achieved this will certainly help in achieving F&F for a good part of the playing season.

David_Tepper

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 07:04:36 PM »
Aside from the weather, I would think that the other major factor is the type of soil under the golf course turf. Fast-draining, sand-based soils, that are found on most links (or links-like) courses, will facilitate F&F conditions. Clay-based soil, which retains moisture, will not.  

The Olympic Club staff has laid down a LOT on sand on the Lake Course over the past few years and there is no doubt the course plays firmer and drains better than it used to.
 
Another factor is the amount of tree coverage on the course.  Thick tree canopies cast shadows that can cause soil to retain moisture for longer than unshaded areas.  
 

Willie_Dow

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 08:43:35 PM »
David - We have clay soil, and the sand we are now using seems to have given us a firm and fast condition.  I have not asked the grain size of the sand, but is there a difference in the grain size that will affect the condition ?

David_Tepper

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 08:52:57 PM »
Willie -

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea about how to answer your question.

Pat Finlen is the golf course super at the OC. My understanding is that laying down sand on the Lake Course was his idea. If someone from Merion contacts him about what he has done at the OC, I am sure he would be happy to fill you in.

DT  

Willie_Dow

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 09:03:45 PM »
My guess would be the greater the grain size, the faster the drain.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2006, 10:37:52 PM »
Scott,

Ultimately, the "will" of the membership or owner can and usually does determine playing conditions.

I think there are a few things have to be present.

The desire to maintain F&F
Mother Nature
Soil conditions
Money

If the "Will" is there, the rest depends upon soil, weather and the funds.

Joe Hancock

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 10:42:16 PM »
Pat,

Your list omitted knowledge. Just an oversight, I'm sure. :)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ian Andrew

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 10:42:23 PM »
The approach of the greens at the 7th course at St. Andrew's is drained and has mix like the green. That is how you ensure the approaches are firm and fast on a heavy soil property.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 10:46:50 PM »
Pat,

Your list omitted knowledge. Just an oversight, I'm sure. :)

Joe

Joe,

I figured, that where there's a will, there's a way.

But, you're right, knowledge is an integral component.

For it it's done wrong, the club might elect to go in another direction.

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 11:23:13 PM »
The desire to maintain F&F
Mother Nature
Soil conditions
Money

If the "Will" is there, the rest depends upon soil, weather and the funds.

I know of 2 courses that are directly across the street from one another.  1 is firm and fast and the other is wet and soggy.  Mother nature and soil conditions are the same, money is the key.  Name the 2 courses?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 07:31:30 AM »
The degree of F & F isn't going to be the same on a sandy site vs. a clay site, but, IMO most courses could be a lot firmer and play much faster if that is what is desired.
IMO, the #1 roadblock to F & F conditions at most courses is the requirement to maintain a certain level of color.  Throw color completely out the window and direct your super to just keep grass on the course and keep it dry and fast and I see no reason why it has to cost more $$$. It will take a lot of work, but no more then what it takes to maintain a lush course. What it will take is a super who is on his game and a membership/ownership with a long term focus. The transition from lush to F & F is more than most can handle.

TEPaul

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 07:45:36 AM »
My take on producing firm and fast conditions is that any golf course/club needs to SPECIFICALLY define what they mean by firm and fast FIRST.

By that I mean they need to actually QUANTIFY what they mean and what their goal is. For instance the goal in the LZ's may be 40-50 yards or more of bounce and roll-out, and maybe more. In the approaches the ultimate goal may be 20-40 yards of bounce and roll-out (depending on the type of shot--eg trajectory et al). On the greens I'm talking about analyzing pitch marks etc of really well struck wedges and 9-irons from good players. Is it possible to stick an aerial approach and suck it back, for instance? If it is the green surfaces really aren't "FIRM". FAST on green surfaces is sort of another equation.

So clubs and courses who want to get into a dedicated firm and fast maintenance program need to QUANTIFY what they mean and what their goal is in PLAYABILITY---eg for the BOUNCE and ROLL-OUT of the golf ball FIRST, and then break it down into at least three specific areas, LZs, approaches, and then green surfaces.

Once that's done the club needs to get with the super and have detailed discussions of what it actually takes from maintenance to acheive those quantified and defined playabilities.

Those discussions get into things like altered maintenance practices (more or regular aeriating, tyning (dethatching), less irrigation (wetting agents), less fertilization, sanding etc). Some clubs don't like the reality of this area because it can be somewhat more disrupting of conditions more often. But one cannot avoid the realities of the necessity of these maintenance practices if a truly firm and fast product is to be achievable. The ultimate obstacle to firm and fast playablity is basically just soft wet turf and THATCH.

One always needs to realize that soil conditions, weather, regionalism etc CAN make this kind of thing vastly different to achieve from course to course.

One also needs to realize that rainfall in various quantities and regularity just takes this kind of playability out.

So given the realities of weather the goal needs to be to return the course AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE to that ideal firm and fast condition and playablilty as weather allows.

This is just the surface of it. This isn't even getting into something like aesthetics (various stages of browning). In other words, some clubs can create really firm and fast playablity (50 plus yards of bounce and roll-out) but in most cases they have to pay to get it---and I mean REALLY pay, in some cases. It's possible to maintain really firm and fast conditions with a light green course (no real browning) but to do that one needs a ton of the money that it takes to pay for the man-hours of constant syringing of not just greens but entire fairways or more. Sometimes we're talking up to a score of men out there syringing.

This is the world of the really high end clubs that are into this firm and fast program now who don't even really brown out with ultra firm and fast conditions. I'm talking the likes of Oakmont and Merion, ANGC that have $2 million PLUS annual operating budgets.

But the first order of business is to quantify what is meant by firm and fast---eg 10 yards, 20 or up to 50 and perhaps really plus yardage of bounce and roll-out.

Clubs that can do that on a regular basis (given the realities of weather) have supers and staff that actually go out and watch the bounce and roll-out of the golf ball and very much maintain towards what they see. This is a pretty amazing balancing act when you get right down to it. It takes constant vigilance!!

This is the world of what I've always referred to as the Ideal Maintenance Meld. Most of us understand the various component parts, sort of  ;) but most don't really understand the huge jigsaw puzzle of how to put all the component parts together in a mainteinance program, what it actually takes from maintenance to do it and what it might cost, or even what the various "give and take" is.

For any club to do it they have to completely understand not just the maintenance model necessary to do it but the playability model FIRST.

I come at this subject strictly from playability. Then we get with those who administer the club and the super and SPECIFICALLY define and quantify the goal of firm and fast playablity, and in at least three specific areas---eg approaches, LZs and green surfaces. Of those three the most important of all are the approaches because they are the link or lynch-pin to an effective over-all ground game option to the aerial approach game.

When you define and quantify these things first and in specific areas, the next step with maintenance usually goes this way---"Can do, No can do, or Can do and here's what it's GOING to cost". Those who think they can get with regularity what some of these high-end clubs get (and with their "look") on the cheap or very simply are pretty much dreaming. If you really want firm and fast playablity and you don't mind something that will look a bit ratty from time to time, then the cost may be more to your liking.

These are the realities. If anyone thinks any course can be firm and fast a day after 2" of rain, they're dreaming. And if anyone thinks the can have firm and fast by just shutting off irrigation they are really dreaming---unless they enjoy the mass annihilation of turf and losing golf courses.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 07:56:16 AM by TEPaul »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 07:54:20 AM »
But, Tom if color was not as important as it is at the clubs you mention, then I don't believe it always takes scores of men and lots more $$$ then maintaining lush conditions. Keeping that degree of uniform color while maintaing a dry golf course takes a lot of work. What if a course went with pure playability and didn't mind some browning out?

RT

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 07:54:47 AM »
Willie and David,

Sand grain sizes will determine the ability of a material to allow the water to follow pore space avenues downwards.  But again one must look at the soil 'profile' dynamic below the surface to see the ability for that area to accept water that is coming from the sand above.

Another factor in sand grain sizes is their inherent surface angularity and sphericity.

But this in relationship to the aforementioned weather and turf types all form a conceit to allow for firm and fast playing conditions.

RT

TEPaul

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 08:04:06 AM »
"But, Tom if color was not as important as it is at the clubs you mention, then I don't believe it always takes scores of men and lots more $$$ then maintaining lush conditions."

Don:

You're absolutely right about that. Problems only arise when some clubs look at the Oakmonts or Merions or even Aroniminks and think they can get the same firm and fast playablity and the same look without paying for it.

I'm not even saying that the memberships of Oakmont, Merion, Aronomink et al do mind some degree of browning out---it's simply that they have what it takes to avoid it. And what it takes to avoid browning and still maintain really firm and fast conditions is MONEY---eg primarily MAN-HOUR money. What we're talking here is massive syringing anywhere on the golf course the MOMENT it's necessary.

This is not what most clubs can do.

Merion's long-term green chairman has one of his enigmatic cliches ;) to describe and explain this subject and area.

"It's not about the money, it's about the money."

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 08:09:53 AM »
To maintain F&F on native soil courses especially in the Northeast can be very tricky.  You have to balance the fertility, and water inputs with traffic and weather.  You need to consider weather at all times and in the Northeast that changes so quickly and dramatically that F&F can turn into soup in a day or two.  And as several of you have pointed out the most important factor is $$$. If you are staffed properly you can present F&F on clay soil given the opportunity to handwater and spoonfeed...  Without a big budget a super can be forced to water less precisely and sacrifice alittle of the F&F conditions.  Firm and Fast is much cheaper and easier to achieve on Sand based courses.  As for the particle size debate,  A wise prof. at UMass used to always say that we need to remember that turf grows in the spaces between the soil particles, not in the soil.  Pore space and compaction are the keys.

TEPaul

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2006, 08:30:15 AM »
Sean:

It's really not too smart for Americans to even attempt to compare the playablities of GB to America, at least not with the idea of completely duplicating GB playabilites over here. I think architects and agronomists understood that as far back as the teens. There is just too much in the natural worlds of those two areas that is just too different. That's a basic reality that probably will never be completely gotten around. You know what they say;

"Never try to F... with Mother Nature."

That's a truism, don't you think?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:33:48 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2006, 08:54:12 AM »
TEPaul,

I had an interesting revelation while visiting an old club in NY a few weeks ago. It is currently getting a facelift, so I was checking out another team's work....

Anyway, the greens at this course were the first greens I had ever seen that were absolutley, positively 100% poa annua. The super claims he NEVER turns on irrigation heads...all he does is hand water because he likes to keep them "dry". It dawned on me...if the only irrigation is shallow, frequent hand waterings....doesn't it make sense that he would be encouraging poa annua rather than bentgrass?

I guess this is a little OT, but not really....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2006, 12:59:21 PM »
"Tom
I think that was the point of my post."

Well, then, Sean, don't you think that just may mean that Mother Nature may not be willing to allow you to do in Florida or Arizona what you can do in Scotland or England or Ireland?  ;)  

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2006, 01:09:34 PM »
May I suggest that everyone read Scott Anderson's TWO feature interviews on this site.

Scott is the super at Huntingdon Valley CC, the posterchild of firm and fast.

Linc Roden's feature interview would be relevant as well.

Can someone comment on the buildup of thatch on fairway approaches to greens and the greens themselves on the ability to get firm and fast conditions and how to rid a course of thatch?  Thanks
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 01:09:49 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

James Bennett

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Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2006, 07:30:57 PM »
Geoff Childs

I think the work undertaken at Olympic lake course on their approaches (significant, deep and heavy coring/sand top dressing) is an example of eliminating thatch in approaches.  The approach work went out some 50 yards from the greens.  

An earlier point noted that water transferred to the subsoil by improved coring/sanding needs to go somewhere.  If it doesn't you end up with a sand/soil slurry depending on the level of rainfall.  Some native soils will drain quite quickly, others (eg clay) will kick you in the butt when it rains if you have overwatered and raised the local water table.  There is nowhere for the rain to drain too, so it takes a long time for the ground to recover.

Very interesting the post last month about the work at Eastward Ho - apparently they cored the surrounds (and greens) so many times over an 18 month period (perhaps 15 to 20 times) that the thatch must have been removed.  It shows that intensive restoration can occur.  I recall at my club about 15 years ago the greens had turned to pudding - they were cored monthly for about 5 months a year, for two years in a row.  In more recent years, we have attended to the surrounds as well.

Note also TEPaul's wise words regarding the local definition of 'firm and fast'.  Really firm and fast can just illuminate the architectural deficincies of a course, resulting in balls running hither and thither (Pat Ruddy made this type of comment about his European Club, Sean Arble has often talked about his dislike of extreme firm and fast with heavy slopes).  On some really good courses, 50 yards run is great golf, on others 25 yards of run would be a better outcome (I note Tom Paul also distinguished between the firm and fast rating of fairways vs approaches vs greens - a good distinction).  I am not aware of any course where golf is better with drives and approaches backing up!

At the end of the day, it is not the thatch that kills the game of golf, it is the lack of pore space, drainage , oxygen and access to nutrients that kills it.  Howeevr, that thatch acts as the impregnable barrier to these necessary and desirable attributes.

I think it was Ron Prichard's recent quote (channelled via Tommy Naccarato) that said something like
'it is more important that the ground is alive than that every blade of grass is alive.'  
The alive ground has two aspects to it - the open pore space in the soil will facilitate life in the grass despite minimal inputs, and the golf ball will react with life when it lands on such ground.  Both are fundamental to golf.

James B

Edited - quote corrected to Ron Prichard, not Ron Whitten.  Thanks TE Paul.  And, was the 'channeller' Tommy N or Tom Paul?  Too many Ron's and too many Tom's for my brain!  My apologies to Tom if I got it wrong (both of you).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 11:30:06 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re:Difficulty in maintaining firm and fast conditions
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2006, 11:12:37 PM »
"I think it was Ron Whitten's recent quote (channelled via Tommy Naccarato) that said something like
'it is more important that the ground is alive than that every blade of grass is alive.'"

James:

Ron Prichard said that although Ron Whitten and Ron Forse may be trying to claim they did.  ;)  

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