CBM/Raynor template holes

« **on:** October 25, 2006, 05:17:10 PM »

With the announcement of the new Bandon course as an homage to their various template holes I was hoping that someone could tell me what they all are.

Are there 18? Are there more than that? Besides the obvious ones (e.g. Redan, Biarritz, Alps, Eden, etc.) what are the others (Cape, Road Hole, Short, ?). And which, or whose, versions will be used: CBM's NGLA Redan or one of Raynor's at say Fisher's Island or Camargo.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2006, 05:36:26 PM »

Maybe someone can go an explain each of the template holes so everyone who is too afraid to ask will know.

I don't know what constitutes a "Bottle" hole...

« **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2006, 05:47:27 PM »

There's are at least two great books which delve into all of this. One is obviously The Evangelist of Golf, George Bahto's masterpiece about CB Macdonald. But another devoted more directly to template holes is Classic Golf Hole Design by Graves and Cornish. In the latter, the following classic templates are listed. Note not all were likely used used by Macdonald or Raynor... the experts on these men can sort this out. But these are listed as templates:

Alps
Biarritz
Cape
Cardinal
Dell
Eden (High-out)
Eden (High-in)
Gibraltar
Hell's Half Acre
Island Green
Long
Maiden
Perfection
Postage Stamp
Punch Bowl
Redan and reverse redan
Reef
Road
Sahara
Short

Note Cornish and Graves strive to list classic golf holes worth copying, or that have been copied elsewhere. Holes such as what they refer to as a "bottleneck" hole (ie 8 at NGLA) did not reach this distinction. But that doesn't mean of course that such will not, or should not, be recreated at Bandon. I'm not sure that sticking to templates is required there... isn't it more just thinking like CB Mac?

TH

« **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2006, 06:01:14 PM »

Wayne

There is also the leven hole as seen at Yale #6 and NGLA #17 as well as the knoll hole (Yale #14). I'd love to see a channel hole built if possible too (as at LIDO from MacKenzie's prize winning design).

If I'm not mistaken this will be a tribute course and NOT a replica course. I believe that Doak et al are free to build the absolute best holes possible on the land using the style of MacDonald. Therefore if there is to be a redan my impression is that it will be the best possible redan on that piece of land and not a copy of the one at NGLA or anywhere else. I certainly hope that is the mandate as I believe that is the unique nature of the project and the one with the highest chance of a world class golf course.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2006, 06:02:45 PM »

GC - that's sure my understanding of their marching orders per what's been written so far, also. They are not to recreate templates but are to try and create like CBMac would have if he were alive today. This may mean some templates, it may mean an interpretation of such.... just as NGLA is.

TH

« **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2006, 06:28:08 PM »

Quote from: Geoffrey Childs on October 25, 2006, 06:01:14 PM

Wayne

There is also the leven hole as seen at Yale #6 and NGLA #17 as well as the knoll hole (Yale #14). I'd love to see a channel hole built if possible too (as at LIDO from MacKenzie's prize winning design).

If I'm not mistaken this will be a tribute course and NOT a replica course. I believe that Doak et al are free to build the absolute best holes possible on the land using the style of MacDonald. Therefore if there is to be a redan my impression is that it will be the best possible redan on that piece of land and not a copy of the one at NGLA or anywhere else. I certainly hope that is the mandate as I believe that is the unique nature of the project and the one with the highest chance of a world class golf course.

Can you tell me about the leven hole... that's first I've heard of it. What/where are its origins? What's the key strategy to playing that hole?

« **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2006, 08:35:40 PM »

Wayne

The leven hole (original Leven links) has great strategy and risk reward. At Yale it is on the lowest part of the property with a stream running the length of the left side of the hole and jutting slightly into the driving area near where an ideal tee shot would land (though these days bombers can carry it). If you drive close to the creek you have an unobstructed view right down the heart of the green. If a tee shot bails out to the right there is a hillside that obstructs your view of the green and in addition a bunker (ruined by Roger Rulewich) hugs the inside of the hill all the way up to the green and must be carried.

At NGLA 17 it's similar except the carry is longer and harder on the left and bailing right creats a blind shot again over a bunker. Here you can also go farther right and flirt with more bunkers for a view of the green as well.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2006, 09:15:42 PM »

There's a hole at Old White called "Hogback"

« **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2006, 09:42:58 PM »

Geoff, just to stir things up a bit - do you seriously think MacDonald, or more likely Raynor, found the "best possible Redan on that piece of land" at Chicago Golf Club? From what I saw there Raynor built up a huge landform and created the Redan #7. The right side must be 20' above grade as viewed from the 8th fairway looking back.

In my mind the MacDonald / Raynor courses are much more manufacturered than the current vogue of minimalism, or perhaps Dr. MacKenzie's minimalistic routing on the best natural features.

I'm not saying that's bad in the slightest, I have loved my exposure to MacD / Raynor, but I don't think the best Redans were just found on natural terrain.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:02:28 PM »

I've never heard of "Cardinal," "Gibraltar," or "Perfection" before. Can anyone give a brief description and a fairly well-known example?

I am also a little uncertain of the difference between the green of a "Maiden" hole and that of a "Double-Plateau." Did Mac and Raynor typically mix-and-match (e.g. Short-Punchbowl, Long-Cape)?

One more thought, slightly more profound (though I'm sure it has been considered in the past): Is every single golf hole a variation on one or more of these templates? Are Macdonald and Raynor the standard-bearers for all golf holes in existence?

« **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:06:38 PM »

Bill

I just played Chicago a couple of weeks ago

Yes - that one on a very flat and featureless property is highly manufactured. It's also a great golf hole.

Look at the original at North Berwick or the one at NGLA

and others even Somerset Hills

And the architect picked not just any random place in a routing to manufacture a redan but a place where the land follows the falloff of the green surface. The redan is a fortress so of course the bunkering and raised areas are manufactured. So Bill, yes when the property allowed I do believe the architect found the best possible spot to replicate the concept.

Why then is the redan at CGC a one of a kind?

« **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:15:27 PM »

"One more thought, slightly more profound (though I'm sure it has been considered in the past): Is every single golf hole a variation on one or more of these templates? Are Macdonald and Raynor the standard-bearers for all golf holes in existence?"

Tim:

I believe it was Mr. Doak, in charge of Bandon's 4th course, who said that every golf course and hole harkens back to TOC at St. Andrews, and either mimics it or is a reaction against it.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:22:16 PM »

Quote from: Geoffrey Childs on October 25, 2006, 10:06:38 PM

Why then is the redan at CGC a one of a kind?

Is it? My impression is that many CB / Raynor holes required a lot of earth moving. I'm sure Doak will find a really good Redan at Bandon, there is a lot of really good sloping land there where the bowl of gorse transitions up into the foothills.

Thanks for the photo of #4 NGLA - what a treat that hole is!

« **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:29:05 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 25, 2006, 05:47:27 PM

But these are listed as templates:

. . .

Gibraltar
. . .

I played only one Gibraltar at Timber Point and can't think it's a common template given the topography required. I guess there may just be others that don't compare to TPs.

Where are the other Gibraltars? Anyone have photos?

« **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:36:49 PM »

Jason

The original Gibraltar par 3 was built by Alister MacKenzie at Moortown in England. I have a picture but its not in digital format. It is a fortress-like slightly uphill par 3 with a very interesting green and bunkering a bit like Timber Point's hole that is out on the water.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:41:57 PM »

Wayne,

Forrest Richardson put together a great list of Golf Course Terms that defines a lot of the holes - http://www.golfgroupltd.com/golf_course_terms.html

« **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:42:47 PM »

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/index.htm

Wayne, I've always found this old webpage useful to demonstrate with pictures and description, a pretty good explanation of the template holes. Mr. Barker has not posted in many moon.

Use the "architecture" button on the left for the hole descriptions.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2006, 10:46:56 PM »

Would you consider #10 at Bandon Dunes to be a Leven hole?

« **Reply #18 on:** October 25, 2006, 11:11:01 PM »

Quote from: Peter Pittock on October 25, 2006, 10:46:56 PM

Would you consider #10 at Bandon Dunes to be a Leven hole?

Peter, I don't think so, as there is nothing to carry and no problem hitting the tee shot way left on #10 and having an unobstructed look at the green. On the Leven hole you have to make a long carry to get to the place where you can see the bottom of the pin, with danger in the route!

« **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2006, 10:47:30 AM »

Note that list I gave from the Cornish & Graves book was really a list of all possible classic holes - that is, "holes considered to be classics." They go on to describe each one, and some they conclude are true classics, some aren't. Their criterion seems to be "worthy of being copied", ie used as a template. The conclusion is that Gibraltar has attempted to be copied, but the results have little overriding theme or design feature - they just seem to take the name. But those listed are:

a hole at Seacroft Golf Club (number not given) - Tom Dunn design (1892).

8th at Moortown - Mackenzie (1909)

15th at Timber Point (NLE) - Colt & Alison (1927).

The original "Perfection" is the 14th at North Berwick-West; the "Cardinal" is #3 at Prestwick. The book lists few copies of Perfection (kinda appropriate, no?), but many of Cardinal.

TH

« **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2006, 10:55:36 AM »

One can play the original "Leven" today. It is the 16th at Lundin Golf Club. I think NGLA's 17th would be a better hole if they hadn't lengthened it from its original 260 length (just like the 16th at Lundy).

« **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2006, 11:00:56 AM »

Peter, I think one can build a case for that. It is not really that close but it sets up the same way.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2006, 11:27:07 AM »

Quote from: Rich Goodale on October 26, 2006, 10:55:36 AM

One can play the original "Leven" today. It is the 16th at Lundin Golf Club. I think NGLA's 17th would be a better hole if they hadn't lengthened it from its original 260 length (just like the 16th at Lundy).

Rich,

The 17th at NGLA plays down hill and usually has a pretty good prevailing wind helping the golfer.

With today's equipment, 260 yards under those conditions, would render many of the architectural features meant to interface with the golfer, obsolete.

In addition, the entrance road behind the 17th would come into play, and improperly so. If TEPaul wasn't so stubborn he'd see the wisdom in moving the gates and the road 50 yards to the North.

« **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2006, 11:35:05 AM »

Pat

The original "Leven" is flat with a VERY large hump to the front-left of the green (NGLA's 17th is actually a "Nevel," or reversed Leven....). One can take on the hump if one has a straight 240 carry in the bag on the day) or aim down the right (think left for the Nevel) to get a clear shot at the green. There is a burn neraby to make that bail-out option problematic.

Rich

« **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2006, 11:53:29 AM »

Rich,

Not shown in Geoff's photo is a small pond on the left that is in play should a pull or a hook be the result of a tee shot.

What I always liked about NGLA's Leven, was the option of trying to drive it in the left side neck, giving you an unobstructed view and neat angle from about 60 or so yards from the green.

Recently, friends of mine, playing alternate shot with their schoolage sons, had to hit their approach shots to the green, from over the green.

Hi-tech has ruined another neat hole.

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