Weiskopf... why no love here?

« **on:** October 20, 2006, 04:12:22 PM »

As someone who has observed and worked in the field with Tom and his talented team I am surprised he is not more revered on this site...

He prefers designing on the fly (plans are created but as a guidelien of sorts)
He still does some of his best work on napkins over dinner (don't order for him by the way!)
He invokes quotes and philosophies of MacKenzie in nearly every conversation (greens are like melted chocolate is his favorite)

and more importantly he does damn fine work.

I do not recall a topic recently discussing TW's work.

Beyond his playing and design talents Tom is one of the best orators on the planet... stories of Woody Hayes and Ben Hogan are amazing and his passion for telling and retelling gives insight to a very misunderstood person. He can hold a room regardless of topic. CBS missed the boat in their use/miuse of such a talent.

If you cannot tell I am a fan.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:31:46 PM »

Not that it has anything to do with architecture, but the public perception of Weiskopf is that he's a bit of a sour personality. Who knows the truth?

At the '86 Masters Nance asked Weiskopf what Nicklaus was thinking on a particular shot. Weiskopf responded that "if I knew what he was thinking I would have won this tournament." Usually when ex-players personalize their commentary it's to remind people how good they used to be. Johnny Miller does it all the time. Here Weiskopf's comment was at once modest while at the same time insightful about what separated Jack from everybody else.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:32:22 PM »

Does he tell the one of Woody punching Charlie Bauman on the sideline??

I would LOVE to hear that one

« **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:50:13 PM »

There were very positive posts on Forest Highlands here during the Mid Am. I like Weiskopf a lot. Growing up in Arizona, the creme de la creme were Weiskopf, Panks, and Nicklaus courses -- the former two of which I much preferred over the latter. Having played more golf on the East Coast the last several years, when I go home and play the Weiskopf desert courses, I must admit I get a little underwhelmed though. Between C & C and Brian Silva (I've yet to play a Doak or a Hanse), I don't think Tom W. quite compares.

« **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:53:48 PM »

Quote from: Greg Tallman on October 20, 2006, 04:12:22 PM

and more importantly he does damn fine work.

Including his work with Moorish or solo only?

« **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:55:43 PM »

I think a big reason that Weiskopf gets little love on GCA is that most of his work is in the southwest. Most of the courses that get the most attention on this site are in the northeast or on the west coast.

I've always enjoyed his courses, they are fun and present many strategic options. Also, he's one of the first modern designers to consistently use short par 4's in his designs.

« **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2006, 04:58:56 PM »

Greg:

I like a number of Tom's designs ...

* Silverleaf in the Scottsdale area

* Lahontan is one of the best I've played from Tom in the Tahoe area.

* A sleeper layout that is a very good member's course is Hassayampa in the Prescott area.

* I also had the opportunity to play Yellowstone in Big Sky this year and thought it is well done for the members who will play there. Right next door is Spanish Peaks and while I did not play the entire course I see it being a good bit less in terms of the member's play forte he has demonstrated with other designs. SP is a bit more demanding and less interesting from a design side. To be fair -- the rest of the course opens next year and holding off of any final comments can wait until then.

No doubt Forrest Highlands gets plenty of ink but if memory serves the course is a mutual collaboration with Jay Moorish.

You are right about Tom's recollection and thinking on a range of golf subjects. Watching his awesome swing was indeed a thing of beauty. Too bad he could not achieve more from the competitive end. I guess we can all be thankful he has stayed in the design arena to showcase his talents.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:17:48 PM »

How many public/daily fee courses has Weiskopf done? I am guessing almost all his work has been at high-end residential golf communities (in the west & southwest) that just don't get seen by many people who don't live there.

It is interesting that the Loch Lomond course Weiskopf did in Scotland has been so well received and is so highly regarded, yet Weiskopf has, to my knowledge, done no further work in GB&I.

« **Reply #8 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:20:20 PM »

Quote from: Tim Copeland on October 20, 2006, 04:32:22 PM

Does he tell the one of Woody punching Charlie Bauman on the sideline??

I would LOVE to hear that one

No but he can hold you for 30 minutes with a story of Woody hacking through the door to the film room with the fire ax because he forgot his key, then grabbing him by the neck when he asked what happened (Tom was assigned to clean the football offices and happened upon the door in many pieces on the floor)... Woody was apparently preparing for THE GAME... 11 months in advance!!!!

I would say that many mistake his passion for being sour. The ball marker incident did a lot to perpetuate the perception of TW. No defense forthcoming on that account. Underneath it all TW is a good person.

Tom's work is quality whether with Moorish or his current asscoiate Phil Smith who is extraordinarily talented in his own right. They do the short par 4 as well as any. Green complexes are generally speaking top notch as well.

The '86 Masters quote is one of the greatest sports commentaries of all time... and 100% off the cuff.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:24:07 PM »

Greg:

Why no serious effort by Tom on the public side -- I can see why he would like the high-end private stuff with Tim B and the likes ?

Does the big fellow not have patience for the public side of the design aisle ?

« **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:24:21 PM »

I think the real answer is that Coore, Crenshaw and Doak are all much easier to spell than Weiskopf. ( I had to look as I typed!)

Joe

« **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:40:15 PM »

Quote from: Matt_Ward on October 20, 2006, 05:24:07 PM

Greg:

Why no serious effort by Tom on the public side -- I can see why he would like the high-end private stuff with Tim B and the likes ?

Does the big fellow not have patience for the public side of the design aisle ?

Matt, While I surely cannot speak for TW he does try to limit the number of projects (2 maybe 3 at a time) and given his manner of working probably fits better with an individual developer like Blickseth.

The work he has done here in Cabo is purely public as is his course in Puerto Vallarta... but upon further review I think you answered the question... many have not been exposed to his work on a large scale.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:45:57 PM »

Greg:

I don't see Tom's reluctance to work in the public sphere as a weakness per se. I do think he gravitates to the big ticket private / resort / gated community course because he doesn't have to go through all the public tap dancing that taxpayer-owned layouts or those on the CCFAD side might have to handle.

I only wish Tom would move away from the formulaic and needed driveable short par-4 -- it's become for him like the island green concept for Pete Dye. Been there / done that. I'm not saying such a desire for the hole concept to be abandoned but the idea that one NEEDS to be included with each design can become a bit tired and frankly unnecessary.

I do like the nature of his green contours and there are some rather unique holes at member type courses (see the 10th hole at Yellowstone as a first rate example) that are clearly quite imaginative.

Like I said before -- his work at Lahontan, Silervleaf and Hassayampa are good efforts -- Lahontan may be the finest member's oriented design I have seen from him.

« **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2006, 05:56:38 PM »

I loved his course in Minn called the Wilds!

http://golfthewilds.com/index.html

« **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:17:53 PM »

Dean,

I like the Wilds, too. I think it makes extremely good use of the rolling terrain on which its built -- a really fun combination of uphill and downhill holes.

It's public, but it's pricey -- the first Minnesota course to crack the $100/round barrier, if I'm not mistaken. I don't play it as often as I would if it were a little cheaper and a little closer to where I live.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:28:50 PM »

How about Double Eagle with Morrish?

The problem is no courses on the east coast or in Florida. Most of his work, either solo or with Morrish, is in the southwest or Rocky Mountains. Anything in Chicago?

« **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:45:52 PM »

What are the opinions of the TW / JM design at Olympic Ocean?

« **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:50:27 PM »

Rick - I agree on all points. From a layout standpoint it takes advantage of very nice land. The way they integrated views of the surrounding country side is awesome. I love the submerged dead forest. Very eerie. I think the range is great. As far as the price, I have only played it twice but, I look at it like a special occasion restaurant. You go when you want a special treat or you have something to celebrate. By the way, here in the East I think $100+ per round is becoming pretty common for quality. In terms of proximity, everything is spread out these days.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:52:05 PM »

Quote from: Mike Benham on October 20, 2006, 06:45:52 PM

What are the opinions of the TW / JM design at Olympic Ocean?

The pre-El Nino holes on the cliffs were brilliant. It was a tragedy that they are no longer. The Par 3 course is also a gem.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2006, 07:21:09 PM »

Greg,

I never see Weiskopf written about much. Doak and C&C all the time. Not just on here, but in architectural articles or related text all the world around.

It does mean that people can fall under the radar, but that is something that is cyclical and not engineered as such. Perhaps it takes more people like you to post on Weiskopf like this, rather than merely wait for others to do so.

I think David Toms is a wonderful golfer, very talented and a joy to watch in great form. But the articles are about Tiger, not Toms. Not a symptom of the "sheep" analogy you poorly made, just a reflection of where the talk is at. If more people who like Weiskopf such as yourself don't post as such, then he will remain less talked about.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2006, 07:34:05 PM »

Quote from: Steve_ Shaffer on October 20, 2006, 06:28:50 PM

How about Double Eagle with Morrish?

The problem is no courses on the east coast or in Florida. Most of his work, either solo or with Morrish, is in the southwest or Rocky Mountains. Anything in Chicago?

Steve,

They did Bloody Point (what a name!) on Daufuskie Island.

http://daufuskieislandresort.com/golf/golf.cfm

Add the Kings Course on the Big Island to the W/M public list. I do agree that the driveable par 4 has become somewhat cliche' for TW, but (having been victimized by the lake on 16 at TPC Scottsdale

) they're still fun to play. The driveable par 4 on the Kings Course may be the best of those I've played. It's a dogleg left, with a prevailing right to left at your back wind, so you really need to both work the ball and factor in the wind to get the ball on or near a very undulating green.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2006, 08:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Rick Shefchik on October 20, 2006, 06:17:53 PM

I like the Wilds, too. I think it makes extremely good use of the rolling terrain on which its built -- a really fun combination of uphill and downhill holes.

It's public, but it's pricey -- the first Minnesota course to crack the $100/round barrier, if I'm not mistaken. I don't play it as often as I would if it were a little cheaper and a little closer to where I live.

Agree with all. Some really good holes -- and a lot of FUN to play. (With the notable exceptions of the par-5 second and the split-fairway
6th -- which Weiskopf reportedly said was his favorite hole out there.)

It's time we get out there again. I suspect they're still doing their pay-the-Fahrenheit-temperature-at-tee-time deal in the spring and fall. (Is that a Wilds exclusive?)

Next week looks perfect!

« **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2006, 12:23:39 AM »

While I do like some of the courses he did with Jay Morrrish quite a bit, I have to admit my first solo Weiskopf course (Vistoso, just north of Tucson) was a bit of a letdown.

From the tee areas, it has to be one of the most visually unappealing and redundant courses I can think of.

« **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2006, 02:55:12 AM »

Ten years ago, TW was getting a lot of attention and placing courses highly in the GOLF DIGEST Best New awards every year. Lately, not so much. I would venture to say it isn't myself or Bill Coore who has knocked him back in the pack a bit, so much as Jim Engh, who keeps winning the DIGEST awards and who is building courses in the same region as Weiskopf and getting more attention for them.

(We will have a chance to discuss that further in December ... Coore, Engh, Weiskopf and I are the four architects who have been asked to participate in a panel discussion for GOLF DIGEST raters in Las Vegas.)

Also, I wouldn't fault Tom W. for not doing more public courses. The same could be said for nearly all big name architects and especially the Tour pros among them. Their names are worth the most on courses connected with high-priced housing developments, so that's who calls them about a job.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2006, 06:36:51 AM »

Public-Forrest Dunes in Rosscommon, MI. Golf Digest Best New Upscale in 2003

http://www.forestdunesgolf.com/

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

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