[Phil Benedict]

I was talking to a friend of mine who recently played Bandon Trails and hated it.  Equated the greens with miniature golf.  Said he had 12 three-putts because (a) the ball would always roll 40 feet away from the hole and (b) it was hard to get these 40-footers any closer than 10 feet.  This fellow is a good athlete who doesn't play a lot of golf but would be a low to mid single digit handicapper if he did.  He thought Pacific Dunes was a little over-the-top as well as far as green contours, but not as bad as the Trails course.

Is this a valid criticism or is this just a case of a non-avid golfer encountering a design that needs a little getting used too?  C&C are such sacred cows around here.

[PThomas]

the latter, I think, Phil...I played it once and didn't think the greens were all that severe

[Rick Shefchik]

Solution: Bigger holes.

[John Kirk]

Is this a valid criticism or is this just a case of a non-avid golfer encountering a design that needs a little getting used too?  C&C are such sacred cows around here.

I'd vote for the latter.  Many of the modern architects, when building top flight courses, incorporate undulating greens into their designs.  I think the modern undulating green is more playable than an old undulating green, becuae the slopes are designed with modern green speeds in mind. Bandon Trails's greens are very sloped, but I don't remember three putting more than a couple times a round.

My concern with the Trails has more to do with narrow playing corridors and lost balls off the fairways, especially on 15-18.

[Sean Leary]

My concern with the Trails has more to do with narrow playing corridors and lost balls off the fairways, especially on 15-18.

JK,

I think you have playing too much at Ballyneal and Stone Eagle jealous as I may be.

The corridors at BT are enormous compared to most courses, and they seems as big or bigger to me than the other two courses at Bandon.

[rjsimper]

Those are the words of a poor putter.

Aside from stimping at 13 on greens more severe than the Trails, there's no other explanation for 12 3-putts in a round.

It has little to do, for me, with C and C being sacred around here...the course is by no means beyond criticism...but to declare the greens over the top simply because you are unable to negotiate a tier or swale to the tune of lagging within 10 feet is silly.

[Walt_Cutshall]

There were a couple greens (or more accurately pin placements) at BT that were ridiculous when I played there. One of them was the par 3 5th. The pin was in that stupid cup on back slope of the valley that bisects the middle of the green. I was pin high 20' left, and could not get the ball to stop in that cup. In 4 tries from that spot,  my putts were off the green twice (one rolled into the bunker), and two finished way below the hole about 15' away. No one else in our group could do better (HCs: 2, 4, 5, . I think everyone 3 putted that hole. I call that little cup "stupid" because it is a great par 3 without being tricked up.

Anyway, there were numerous instances of green contours run amuck. FWIW, I'm not laying this on C&C. Pin placement and green speeds are largely responsible for this kind of thing. Well, actually I am blaming them for the clown's mouth on the 5th green.  

[John Kirk]

JK,

I think you have playing too much at Ballyneal and Stone Eagle jealous as I may be.

The corridors at BT are enormous compared to most courses, and they seems as big or bigger to me than the other two courses at Bandon.

Dude,

Perhaps, but I was the guy playing in a pro-am last year looking for balls out there.  I think BT is tighter than its two counterparts.  I also think BT is the hardest of the three courses, which is not a criticism, just an observation.

I detest looking for balls.  That's why I like #7 at the Trails so much.  And even though the fairway is 90 yards wide, we were over in the right scrub looking.

Walt C.,

Hole #16 is a very tough green, too, but you can two putt rather easily if you're on the correct side.  Plus it's a short par 5.

Not to defend #5 too strongly, but I imagine there's a general area on that green where two putts can be had to any possible pin placement.

[Sean Leary]

JK,

I think you have playing too much at Ballyneal and Stone Eagle jealous as I may be.

The corridors at BT are enormous compared to most courses, and they seems as big or bigger to me than the other two courses at Bandon.

Dude,

Perhaps, but I was the guy playing in a pro-am last year looking for balls out there.  I think BT is tighter than its two counterparts.  I also think BT is the hardest of the three courses, which is not a criticism, just an observation.

I detest looking for balls.  That's why I like #7 at the Trails so much.  And even though the fairway is 90 yards wide, we were over in the right scrub looking.

Walt C.,

Hole #16 is a very tough green, too, but you can two putt rather easily if you're on the correct side.  Plus it's a short par 5.

Not to defend #5 too strongly, but I imagine there's a general area on that green where two putts can be had to any possible pin placement.

John,

Are there any holes at BT that are as tight as 1,7, or 16 at Pacific.  I think BT is the hardest of the three as well, but it doesn't have anything to do with width of the corridors.

Witch Hollow's corridors are way tighter than BT's, particularly when they let the tall grass grow, no?

[John Kirk]

BT is wider than WH for the most part.  I'd guess holes 8, 15, 16, and 18 at BT are narrower than a typical Witch Hollow hole.  BT has to account for greater wind.  Also, Witch Hollow has wider rough areas to slow balls heading out of play.

Bandon Trails is an interesting topic for me, since Coore/Crenshaw are generally considered the best architects in the business, and yet, a few of my friends place the Trails as the third best Bandon course.  I also like the Bandon Dunes course better, though there may be a sentimental attachment.  Now that's a wide course.

[cary lichtenstein]

BT was ranked in 3rd place by me and my wife. We spent 7 days there is summer.

Generally, most everyone at the bar agreed as well as the number of rounds played as verified by the pro shop.

[Sean Leary]

BT was ranked in 3rd place by me and my wife. We spent 7 days there is summer.

Generally, most everyone at the bar agreed as well as the number of rounds played as verified by the pro shop.

For those at the bar, how much of that is because it isn't on the water though?  For most non-GCAers, that is a big reason why they like it better, IMO. I haven't played BT enough to decide where it falls in my preference. Right now it is tied with BD.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat Mucci has another thread dealing with quirky architecture and I think the point of this thread coincides with that one. I believe that the vast majority of the golfing public does not appreciate nor like anything out of the ordinary - and that is especially true with respect to green contours.  They think the perfect course is big with wide fairways that are bright green, white sand bunkers with consistent depth and appearance, and greens that my be fast but without significant contour.  I have seen this with many of my golfing friends who are good players who may view other types of courses as something to experience but if given the choice, they would much sooner play a Fazio course than a C&C, etc. course.

[Phil Benedict]

I believe that the vast majority of the golfing public does not appreciate nor like anything out of the ordinary - and that is especially true with respect to green contours.

Jerry,

Are the contours at Bandon Trails as severe as those at Augusta National?  The reason I ask this question is that I'm sure that my friend, and almost anyone else for that matter, would come back from Augusta raving about the place, noting that the greens were unbelievably tough.  Maybe it's a matter of expectations.

[Eric Olsen]

I don't think the greens at BT are particularly severe.  In my recent trip, there was a nasty pin on the front right on BT 5, and 16 can be severely sloped with the amount of gravity.  But there was an equally nasty pin on the back left at BD 7, higher up the slope than I have ever seen.  

[Michael Dugger]

There was a time and a place in regards to philosophies on golf design in which it was accepted that the game ought to be challenging.

Sometimes I wonder about this being the case anymore.

If you cannot get a ball to stop near the hole because you left yourself in the wrong position, whose fault is that???

The 5th green at Bandon Trails tells us that being below the hole is a MUST if you want a shot at birdie....or even par.  

Hard par, easy bogey.

I have not found any of the greens on any of the courses at Bandon to be over the top, ridiculous, too hard or whatever.  The point of strategic golf design is for the player to "think" their way around the course.  If you leave yourself in a bad spot on the course you did not think well enough, but more likely did not EXECUTE well enough.  

Such is the game.  I say go buy your friends a copy of Hunter's The Links and let him read all about what golf would be like if every fairway was made of cement and the sides of each fairway lined with 100 ft high walls.  

Too many golfers just don't have the "sporting" instinct required to REALLY get something out of their gawf.

Stay off my courses all your soulless golfers.  Back to the bar and another game of Golden Tee for you!

[Phil Benedict]

The point of strategic golf design is for the player to "think" their way around the course.  If you leave yourself in a bad spot on the course you did not think well enough, but more likely did not EXECUTE well enough.  

Michael,

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, it may be difficult to think your way around a course you've never played before, even with a caddy telling you where to hit it (which actually is having someone else think your way around the course).  Bandon Trails is a resort course.  How many times do you need to play it to understand the strategy?

[Joe Hancock]

Phil,

So, to bring your statement into alignment with redanman's "two word" analogy, are you saying Bandon Trails is eggs, Benedict?

Or, is it more of a snake in the grass?

Joe

[Michael Dugger]

The point of strategic golf design is for the player to "think" their way around the course.  If you leave yourself in a bad spot on the course you did not think well enough, but more likely did not EXECUTE well enough.  

Michael,

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, it may be difficult to think your way around a course you've never played before, even with a caddy telling you where to hit it (which actually is having someone else think your way around the course).  Bandon Trails is a resort course.  How many times do you need to play it to understand the strategy?

I figure if you are 20', pin-high, and three putt, next time around you will think twice about being above, or even EQUAL, with the hole.

There are a lot of golf courses where a player is dead if left above the hole.  This is not a crazy, new concept unique to Bandon Trails.

Augusta looks ridiculous on TV.  Tiger putted off the 13th green.

Oakland Hills looks very challenging if you are putting across the green.

Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Southern Hills, Prairie Dunes.  

If someone likes flat circular greens set in a dramatic landscape, let them go to Sandpines.  

Otherwise, I say knocking any of the greens on the Bandon Dunes complex for being "unfair" is pedestrian.  

Yes, the turf is firm and the ball runs a loooooot.

But somehow the Curtis cupper's had little problems handling the greens at Pacific

It sounds like your friend disliked Bandon Trails because he is like the typical American golfer, as described by Doak in the Confidential Guide.  He was unable to take the good breaks with the bad and crumbled under the pressure of the roller coaster.  Sometimes a slightly mis hit shot ends up poorly, worse than you deserved.  But at the same time a REALLY poorly hit shot will bump and run and curl and end up a lot better than it should have.  I have to believe that in the end it all works out somewhat "fairly."

Such is the nature of undulating, fast and firm turf.  Topped shots get a lot more love than they deserve, for example, shot hit slightly fat turn out okay.  

All the Bandon courses run fast, they do not play like a lush Palm Springs golf course.  

It's different, it's challenging, it's fun.....it's golf how it's meant to be.
 

[LPolisano]

I played Bandon Trails twice about a year ago.  Both rounds, I had well over 36 putts.  The highlight of my work on the greens was knocking my first putt on #16 into a greenside bunker from about 30 feet.  They are tough greens, but I putted terribly.  The greens are not over the top in my opinion.  In fact, even with my poor display, I found them fun to putt.    

[Phil Benedict]

Keeping the ball below the hole is right up there with don't tug on Superman's cape.  It's not strategic; it's axiomatic.

When is strategic just another word for hard?  In another thread John Kirk praises Prairie View but emphasizes that it's really hard.  All the examples of strategic cited on this thread (Oakmont, Pine Valley etc.) are also examples of hard.  Maybe my friend who with whom I started this thread doesn't play very much golf and he was frustrated because Bandon Trails is just plain hard.  That doesn't mean it isn't a good course but it also doesn't mean my friend didn't like it because he didn't understand the strategy of the place.

[Michael Dugger]

Keeping the ball below the hole is right up there with don't tug on Superman's cape.  It's not strategic; it's axiomatic.

When is strategic just another word for hard?  In another thread John Kirk praises Prairie View but emphasizes that it's really hard.  All the examples of strategic cited on this thread (Oakmont, Pine Valley etc.) are also examples of hard.  Maybe my friend who with whom I started this thread doesn't play very much golf and he was frustrated because Bandon Trails is just plain hard.  That doesn't mean it isn't a good course but it also doesn't mean my friend didn't like it because he didn't understand the strategy of the place.

Doesn't the "strategy" of keeping the ball below the hole apply for all golf courses, not just Bandon Trails??

I think it should be emphasized when applied to fast greens, fast surroundings and "movement" in the putting surface, but we seem to have a difference in opinion pertaining to what is challenging and what is not.

I don't think it is asking too much of a golfer to consider slope of the green and pin location when devising what approach shot to play next.  

Is it hard?  Sure it's hard, but not every green at BT is sloped like the 5th.  The 9th, for example, is very low key.  Same with 10th, etc...

Like I said earlier, it ain't Palm Springs.  Some golfers LIKE having the opportunity to do something besides throw darts, which is essentially what you are kinda saying.

If we had to putt into the middle of a dartboard from wherever our throw stuck, we'd pay more careful attention to the contours of the dartboard itself.      

[cary lichtenstein]

I did not find the greens at Bandon Trails any more difficult other than #5 if you are in the wrong position.

The water is not a factor for me in how I view the course, it is the topography, and BT starts out and ends with wonderful topo, but gets flat in the middle.

[David Kelly]

Phil,

If your friend hated Trails and thought the greens at Pacific Dunes were a little over the top I question why he went to Bandon in the first place and what exactly was he expecting to find.

Does this guy leave no room in his critique of Trails for the fact that he might have been putting very poorly or was not used to undulating greens?  

I would question anyone who was so sure of their opinion after only one round.

[Phil Benedict]

My friend was the guest of a vendor. Not only did he not like the course, he was being comped!

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