[John_Conley]

Now that Arnold Palmer has finished his playing career we can shift at least some attention to his designs.

K Club was recently discussed here and there were many opinions that consider it a great "match-play course".

What other Palmer/Seay courses are worth making a trip to see?  No pun intended.

BTW, Bay Hill was not originally laid out by Palmer although he has had a hand in extensive reworking over the decades.

I'll throw out one that's pretty good - a Cary favorite - Deacon's Lodge in the Brainerd Lakes area of Minnesota.  A misnomer if there ever was one, I don't think Mr. Palmer's father ever set foot on the site, the course is a terrific modern layout.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It is difficult to know how much time Arnie spent at each course.  There is the famous story of the opening of Tralee when he asked, "Where is the first tee?"
 I am not sure that meant that he did not have input on the design phase through blue prints etc.  After all both Ross and Tillinhast did not see all of their completed projects.  I think we hold modern architects to a higher standard than the old ones.
Some Palmer designs I like are , Musgrove Mill and Old Tabby Links in SC,  CC at Woodmore in MD

[Ed_Baker]

John,

I don't know if it's worth a trip or not but I really enjoy Wildcat Run in Estero Fla.

I was a member at Wildcat for about 10 years and I first played the course when the proshop was a trailer so I had a chance to see it evolve a bit.

For a golf course that was designed with housing as the primary focus a sporty, fun to play, pretty well routed venue was created.

The 14th hole was kind of a Palmer/Seay signature or standard for that period being a bunkerless straightaway long par 4 with the green an extension of the fairway, the ultimate Bang it twice hole that played in to a prevailing wind most days.

The 18th in particular was a very fun risk/reward par 5 that both the power hitters and bunters could enjoy.

[Bill Gayne]

I liked Bay Creek in Cape Charles, Virginia and Tralee in Ireland.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Of the 3 Palmer/Seay courses in the Philadelphia area, Laurel Creek is probably the best although it has been ruined by the sight of too much Toll Brothers housing. If the housing were not built, it would be considered at a higher level.It usualy plays fast and firm. My former club, Commonwealth, is a very difficult course interspaced between an office campus and adjacent to a Naval Air Base. It's a very difficult course noted for its excellent conditioning.The third course, Blue Bell, was modified from the original routing by Toll Brothers to accomodate more housing and is generally regarded as the weak sister of the Palmer courses here.

I've played Cherokee Run in Atlanta and thought it was well done.

I agree with Ed Baker's assessment of Wildcat Run as fun to play.

I understand Palmer's home club in La Quinta, The Tradition Club, is highly regarded.

[Gary Slatter]

I like Hapuna in Hawaii for my best/only Palmer course. And certainly don't like what he did to Dick Wilson/Joe Lee's Bay Hill to maintain it as a Tour destination.  I loved it in 1969 compared to 2006.

[Gib_Papazian]

I *want* to love Arnie's designs because . . . well . . . he is the standard of sportmanship by which everyone ought to be measured.

So, it bothers me to admit that this sacred cow just does not seem to measure up to scruff as an architect. The Hapuna Prince is okay, sort of.

Running Y unfolds with a thoughtful routing, but the shaping is clumsy on the holes adjacent to the vast meadows and fresh water lakes.

Air-lifting a series of green complexes that resemble a catcher's mitt and plunking them down at the edge of an Ansel Adams photo just ends up being an almost laughable non-sequitur.

Now, like Bob Graves, I've never played an Arnie creation that could be described as a "bad golf course." Everything "fits" to a greater or lesser extent  - and it is obvious a competant shop directed the construction.

The missing elements are surprise, amusement, a sense of humor and whimsy. They took a shot at the double-fairway "Channel Hole" at Running Y (#17), and though it works, there is an absence of boldness in shaping.

If you are going to build a Channel Hole, then dammit, make it a REAL risk-reward. There is no point is coming up with something classical and then watering it down to a tepid shadow of its potential.

It makes me think of #15 at Lake Merced - what could have been a wild Redan ends up being a conservative letdown because Rees, like Arnie, cannot bring themselves to MAKE A STATEMENT.

There are all sorts of interesting and creative elements at La Quinta - the par 3's come to mind - but he stopped short of going whole hog. ANYTHING next to the stadium course is going to look conventional, so this was a lost opportunity.

Don't just plug in the same mind-numbing repititious junk in the name of "consistency!" Stretch the envelope. Break it if you have to. For all of Prince Puckler and C.B.'s rants against "the thirst for novelty," C.B. came up with some of the most insane renditions of "Classic Holes," ever constructed.

Arnie should have retired years ago. We know he likes to play, but it has been painful to watch THE elder statesman of golf hack it around for most of a generation.

He needs to ditch that exercise in conservative "group-think" in his shop and get some new blood in the place. Encourage experimentation - be bold.

Arnie was the boldest player in history. Guts, charm, risk, charisma, wild crashes, spectacular thrusts of the saber, gravitas and sheer love of the game.

It is time for his golf courses to reflect the man.

[Paul Richards]

For someone who is one of my all-time heroes, his architectural record is not one of great merit.


Here is my list of all of his courses that deserve to be considered 'Top 100' material:










 

[Gib_Papazian]

If I were The King, I'd look around for the Todd Eckenrode's of the design communitty and bring them into the fold. Arnie is the ultimate figurehead, so his shop is always busy.

There are all sorts of young lions out there - or guys like Doug Nickels who ought to be given more than "boutique business."

Imagine a "think tank" of brilliant and unconventional young designers gathered together with Arnie on the masthead.

I doubt Arnie has a huge ego and therefore the architects would have much greater latitude than under an autocrat like Nicklaus.

[Tim Copeland]

Cullasaja ....Cashiers, NC

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Palmer Designs I Like..........

Arnold Palmer locked in a closet with the key 110,000 miles away with no hope what-so-ever of him ever being released back into the general public, thus allowing middle-aged women around the world to sleep better at night.

That's an Arnold Palmer Design I like.

He should have retired like 25-30 years ago.

[Mike Benham]

He should have retired like 25-30 years ago.

It's the Senior, oops, Champions Tour and attendance and TV coverage is lacking so how many of us have actually seen him play in the past 5 - 10 years?

[Forrest Richardson]

I like the work that Palmer Designs did at Tralee, Ireland. Many disagree with me, and I believe there was a course there before their work, but I still enjoyed the place.

[Paul Richards]

Forrest,



I'll agree with you that Tralee is probably his firm's best work.


Except for that God-awful par 5 that goes up and up and up blindly on the back nine!

[Forrest Richardson]

I did not mind that par-5 — it is one-of-a-kind. In my book, a golf hole you will only find singularly in the world does not make it bad. Rather, it is interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Good point in listing Laurel Creek in Delran, NJ. The layout when it first opened was completely free and clear of housing and the design was indeed quite good.

As an FYI -- the first hole was the par-3 8th and you played the solid par-4 7th as your concluding hole.

In many ways the course reminded me of some of the better Indiana courses because it was relatively flat.

Laurel Creek flies under the radar for many because so few likely know of the course.

***

If I had to mention another AP layout w Ed Seay that made me stop and think about it -- I would select the Oasis GC in Mesquite, NV. Unfortunately, the club destroyed the original uphill par-5 1st hole and substituted a very weak short par-4 that follows the same terrain.

The long par-4 3rd -- a blind dog-leg left is one of the best AP holes I have played. A few holes further into the round you play through the red rock canyons and the holes are indeed an eyeful.

The ending is simply lackluster but I can remember saying to myself how AP / Ed Seay were not afraid to take some bold steps in bringing forward a design far from being desert conventional. In many ways -- the work of AP / Seay inspired the later design by Dennis Rider (who worked on the Oasis) who created Wolf Creek several years later.

Oasis plays just over 6,700 yards but has a very demanding 141 slope for good reason.

Too bad AP could not design more of such layouts.

[Rick Shefchik]

John --

I'm not a fan of Deacon's Lodge, though I've only played it once. As I recall, the wetlands were so restrictive that I felt like I was playing target golf in a marsh.  The women in our group couldn't hit more than 5-iron off several tees because anything longer would carry them through the landing area and into the junk. Probably not Arnie's fault, but it wasn't my kind of course.

On the other hand, I enjoy the TPC at Blaine -- do they call that one Deacon's Walk? I can't remember now. There's water to be avoided there, too, but your options are clearer. Not really an innovative course, but a pretty solid test of golf, and fun to play.

[Paul Richards]

Forrest,

It is a one-of-a-kind hole.  At least that part of it is good.

Interesting?  Not in my book.  It's a series of blind and uphill shots.  What's so interesting about that?

Now there are plenty of OTHER holes on Tralee that are interesting and good and fun.  That hole just isn't one of them, in my book.

[David Stamm]

I like Aviara, but don't love it. 18 is a pretty good finishing hole, but the course has alot of forgettable holes as well.

[TEPaul]

"Re:Palmer designs you like"

Could you give me a couple of weeks to answer that? Belay that. If it's not too much trouble would you mind giving me a couple of years to answer that?

I think the first Palmer course I saw was that one outside Pittsburgh which might have been the last time I played in a Pennsylvania State Amateur.

I remember standing on the 10th tee---my first hole of the first round and looking down the fairway below me and thinking if I hit this ball right in the middle of that fairway I have absolutely zero idea if my next shot is supposed to go about 90 degrees right or 90 degrees left.  

I don't think anyone in my group could figure it out either. So we all hit good drives in the middle of the fairway, got down there and still weren't all that sure where to go next. We figured it looked like we should go about 45 degree left over the side of a mini-mountain (it was a par 5, that much we could tell).

So we all hit long irons over the corner of the mini-mountain, walked around it and two of the shots had hit a cart path right in the landing zone and bounced over the fairway right into a parallel lake on the other side.

That just may've been the worst excuse for a golf hole in the entire civilized world.

On the other hand, there's a newish Palmer course on the highway that goes over to Amelia Island from I-95. The course seems a bit too hard, in my opinion, but that course did have a par 3 green, #17, I believe, which really was one of the neatest par 3 greens to play to I've ever seen anywhere. It was one of those unusual par 3s that is remarkably strategic.

[TEPaul]

Here's another important point to ponder:

What's worse---Arnold Palmer courses or the names of Arnold Palmer courses?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like Commonwealth National.

And, I think, with some fine tuning, it could be even better.

[TEPaul]

"I like Commonwealth National."

Patrick:

I forgot about that one---it is pretty good. I know Palmer likes to fly but I always thought it was a bit of overkill that he designed the Willow Grove A-10, Warthog airbase along the left side of the first and second hole. Those damn Warthogs have got to be the loudest things on earth. I used to hear OK until a couple of years ago when one of those monsters floored it off the line and blasted off right next to the 2nd green when I was trying to putt.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat

What "fine tuning" did you have in mind for Commonwealth? The ownership brought in Seay and the project architect, Erik Larsen, to look at the course in its 10th year. I'd be  interested in your comments as a former member of the Advisory Board and Golf Committee.

Steve

[A.G._Crockett]

River's Edge in Shallotte, NC is very good.

I like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA a lot, though I doubt if many/any outside the immediate area have ever heard of it.

Cherokee Run in Conyers, GA is good in most estimations, though I was not as fond of it as many are.

The Palmer courses that I have seen, and admittedly that is a relatively small sample of the total, are very playable, built for a mid-level clientele, and not courses that you would quickly tire of playing.  They don't seem to stir a lot of passion, which I guess locates them in the market in a particular niche.  It isn't a niche without merit, though.

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