Now that Arnold Palmer has finished his playing career we can shift at least some attention to his designs.

K Club was recently discussed here and there were many opinions that consider it a great "match-play course".

What other Palmer/Seay courses are worth making a trip to see?  No pun intended.

BTW, Bay Hill was not originally laid out by Palmer although he has had a hand in extensive reworking over the decades.

I'll throw out one that's pretty good - a Cary favorite - Deacon's Lodge in the Brainerd Lakes area of Minnesota.  A misnomer if there ever was one, I don't think Mr. Palmer's father ever set foot on the site, the course is a terrific modern layout.

John,

I don't know if it's worth a trip or not but I really enjoy Wildcat Run in Estero Fla.

I was a member at Wildcat for about 10 years and I first played the course when the proshop was a trailer so I had a chance to see it evolve a bit.

For a golf course that was designed with housing as the primary focus a sporty, fun to play, pretty well routed venue was created.

The 14th hole was kind of a Palmer/Seay signature or standard for that period being a bunkerless straightaway long par 4 with the green an extension of the fairway, the ultimate Bang it twice hole that played in to a prevailing wind most days.

The 18th in particular was a very fun risk/reward par 5 that both the power hitters and bunters could enjoy.

Of the 3 Palmer/Seay courses in the Philadelphia area, Laurel Creek is probably the best although it has been ruined by the sight of too much Toll Brothers housing. If the housing were not built, it would be considered at a higher level.It usualy plays fast and firm. My former club, Commonwealth, is a very difficult course interspaced between an office campus and adjacent to a Naval Air Base. It's a very difficult course noted for its excellent conditioning.The third course, Blue Bell, was modified from the original routing by Toll Brothers to accomodate more housing and is generally regarded as the weak sister of the Palmer courses here.

I've played Cherokee Run in Atlanta and thought it was well done.

I agree with Ed Baker's assessment of Wildcat Run as fun to play.

I understand Palmer's home club in La Quinta, The Tradition Club, is highly regarded.

I *want* to love Arnie's designs because . . . well . . . he is the standard of sportmanship by which everyone ought to be measured.

So, it bothers me to admit that this sacred cow just does not seem to measure up to scruff as an architect. The Hapuna Prince is okay, sort of.

Running Y unfolds with a thoughtful routing, but the shaping is clumsy on the holes adjacent to the vast meadows and fresh water lakes.

Air-lifting a series of green complexes that resemble a catcher's mitt and plunking them down at the edge of an Ansel Adams photo just ends up being an almost laughable non-sequitur.

Now, like Bob Graves, I've never played an Arnie creation that could be described as a "bad golf course." Everything "fits" to a greater or lesser extent  - and it is obvious a competant shop directed the construction.

The missing elements are surprise, amusement, a sense of humor and whimsy. They took a shot at the double-fairway "Channel Hole" at Running Y (#17), and though it works, there is an absence of boldness in shaping.

If you are going to build a Channel Hole, then dammit, make it a REAL risk-reward. There is no point is coming up with something classical and then watering it down to a tepid shadow of its potential.

It makes me think of #15 at Lake Merced - what could have been a wild Redan ends up being a conservative letdown because Rees, like Arnie, cannot bring themselves to MAKE A STATEMENT.

There are all sorts of interesting and creative elements at La Quinta - the par 3's come to mind - but he stopped short of going whole hog. ANYTHING next to the stadium course is going to look conventional, so this was a lost opportunity.

Don't just plug in the same mind-numbing repititious junk in the name of "consistency!" Stretch the envelope. Break it if you have to. For all of Prince Puckler and C.B.'s rants against "the thirst for novelty," C.B. came up with some of the most insane renditions of "Classic Holes," ever constructed.

Arnie should have retired years ago. We know he likes to play, but it has been painful to watch THE elder statesman of golf hack it around for most of a generation.

He needs to ditch that exercise in conservative "group-think" in his shop and get some new blood in the place. Encourage experimentation - be bold.

Arnie was the boldest player in history. Guts, charm, risk, charisma, wild crashes, spectacular thrusts of the saber, gravitas and sheer love of the game.

It is time for his golf courses to reflect the man.

If I were The King, I'd look around for the Todd Eckenrode's of the design communitty and bring them into the fold. Arnie is the ultimate figurehead, so his shop is always busy.

There are all sorts of young lions out there - or guys like Doug Nickels who ought to be given more than "boutique business."

Imagine a "think tank" of brilliant and unconventional young designers gathered together with Arnie on the masthead.

I doubt Arnie has a huge ego and therefore the architects would have much greater latitude than under an autocrat like Nicklaus.

Palmer Designs I Like..........

Arnold Palmer locked in a closet with the key 110,000 miles away with no hope what-so-ever of him ever being released back into the general public, thus allowing middle-aged women around the world to sleep better at night.

That's an Arnold Palmer Design I like.

He should have retired like 25-30 years ago.

I like the work that Palmer Designs did at Tralee, Ireland. Many disagree with me, and I believe there was a course there before their work, but I still enjoyed the place.

I did not mind that par-5 — it is one-of-a-kind. In my book, a golf hole you will only find singularly in the world does not make it bad. Rather, it is interesting.

John --

I'm not a fan of Deacon's Lodge, though I've only played it once. As I recall, the wetlands were so restrictive that I felt like I was playing target golf in a marsh.  The women in our group couldn't hit more than 5-iron off several tees because anything longer would carry them through the landing area and into the junk. Probably not Arnie's fault, but it wasn't my kind of course.

On the other hand, I enjoy the TPC at Blaine -- do they call that one Deacon's Walk? I can't remember now. There's water to be avoided there, too, but your options are clearer. Not really an innovative course, but a pretty solid test of golf, and fun to play.

I like Aviara, but don't love it. 18 is a pretty good finishing hole, but the course has alot of forgettable holes as well.

Here's another important point to ponder:

What's worse---Arnold Palmer courses or the names of Arnold Palmer courses?  

"I like Commonwealth National."

Patrick:

I forgot about that one---it is pretty good. I know Palmer likes to fly but I always thought it was a bit of overkill that he designed the Willow Grove A-10, Warthog airbase along the left side of the first and second hole. Those damn Warthogs have got to be the loudest things on earth. I used to hear OK until a couple of years ago when one of those monsters floored it off the line and blasted off right next to the 2nd green when I was trying to putt.

River's Edge in Shallotte, NC is very good.

I like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA a lot, though I doubt if many/any outside the immediate area have ever heard of it.

Cherokee Run in Conyers, GA is good in most estimations, though I was not as fond of it as many are.

The Palmer courses that I have seen, and admittedly that is a relatively small sample of the total, are very playable, built for a mid-level clientele, and not courses that you would quickly tire of playing.  They don't seem to stir a lot of passion, which I guess locates them in the market in a particular niche.  It isn't a niche without merit, though.