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David Stamm

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Green Hills CC
« on: October 09, 2006, 02:48:24 PM »
I'm curious if anyone has any kind of history in regards to this club. Was this in fact a Mack. course or someone else? A friend of mine seems to remember that in Doaks book on Mack. that Hunter (or Jack Fleming) was in fact the arch. of record. Also, how much of the original design in still intact? Perhaps Doak himself can shed some light. And Hucks, if you're out there maybe you have some info. since this is in your neck of the woods. If any one has some old photos, that would be great. Thanks.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2006, 02:58:39 PM »
David - course history isn't really my thing.  I've just always assumed this is a MacKenzie course... I will tell you this:  whoever did it, it's not the shining light of their career.  It's a decent course but really no great shakes.

TH
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2006, 02:58:40 PM »
I don't know much about the history of the club, David. But I do know that Mike DeVries rebuilt a green/hole there not too long ago.

Mike might have a bit of info. Though I notice he rarely chimes in here anymore.
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jeffmingay.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2006, 03:34:44 PM »
David,
Yes it is MacKeznie and it's a shadow of it's former self, just like most every MacKeznie course like it in California. Neglected over the duration of a Great Depression and a World War and after that, changed ruthlessly by a bunch of green committee/rater/panelists that knew better for 50 years straight.

That's the course that Tom speaks of. It was quite sporty in it's day aka The Union League Club.
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 03:46:06 PM »
Thanks Tommy. And Hucks, it slipped my mind that subject   is not your cup of tea. ;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 03:47:00 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 03:48:59 PM »
David:  well, a man does have to know his limitations.

 ;D

And Tommy's right (as he is about most everything except college football) - from the pictures I've seen that once was a pretty nice golf course.  What's there today seems to me to be one of the greatest testaments to how little one gets for his private course dollar here in our neck of the woods.   ;)
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2006, 03:52:30 PM »
Oh, don't get me started Hucks on value for dollar on private courses. Your area makes mine look like a desolate wasteland! :(
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2006, 03:55:01 PM »
Teenage Wasteland....
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2006, 03:57:06 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on October 09, 2006, 03:52:30 PM
Oh, don't get me started Hucks on value for dollar on private courses. Your area makes mine look like a desolate wasteland! :(

Whoa... OK I am trying to guess where you live because if you could see Los Altos CC, and realize it costs $300K to join, well... it must be the tip of Long Island, or Westchester County or the like... and in those places the money is crazy yes but the courses at least on some level are worth it!  You have to get pretty crazy dollars to have as little bang for your buck as Los Altos, or Almaden CC at $100K plus, or many others around here... the point isn't so much the high cost, but how LITTLE one gets for it.  We're talking high six figures for very very very little quality.

TH
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2006, 04:00:16 PM »
Out here in the fields....
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2006, 04:19:39 PM »
Tom, I'm in North San Diego county. When you put in that context (300k) I see what you mean. We also have courses of that price range (or close to it) and they have very little quality either. I just meant from my standpoint, there is little to choose from quanity wise and quality wise. I would venture to guess that a course like Green Hills or Meadow Club, Peninsula CC and the like would be revered here because it's so barren here. The 3 courses that are generally considered the best here are Pauma Valley CC (rtj sr), Ranch Santa Fe GC (Behr) and San Diego CC (Bell sr). I like the courses, but if they were in another major met. area they would be merely afetrthoughts. I hope that clears up what I was trying to convey. :)
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2006, 04:26:11 PM »
David:

That does clear things up.  You have it pretty bad down there also, with some most definite cost silliness as well.  Our whole state is like that.  But RSF GC is a GREAT course, or at least I think so.  Of course one has to live in the enclave to be a member there, so that price is out of this world in another way... but at least there one in some way gets what he's paying for.  Or at least it's a lot closer than the stuff up here that goes for six figures.

BTW I doubt Green Hills or Peninsula would be revered by anyone there or here other than golf course architecture freaks.  Sure they each have the pedigree, but well.... a pedigree on a course that ain't that great means exactly what?

Meadow Club is the real deal.

So yes, we have a lot for architecture buffs up here, granted.  But that's a small subset of golfers to say the least.

TH
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 04:27:16 PM by Tom Huckaby »
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2006, 04:33:02 PM »
I think the pedigree goes along way down here for some. Guys are willing to cross the border and play TJ CC because Mack. designed one of the nines. I don't know if you've been to TJ or played that course but that is definitely NOT worth the pain to go through just beacuse of pedigree.

BTW, I really like RSF GC as well. It's too bad it was butchered in 2002. I hear the members are already wanting to change it back to the "original look". What a waste of money!! ::) ::) ::)  
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2006, 04:40:20 PM »
Hmmmm.... I think two things are going on here:

1) you may be hanging around too much with architecture nuts; and

2) absence from "pedigreed" courses does make the heart grow fonder.

I have not been to the course in TJ, but I've heard enough and seen enough pics to get a sense that yes, going there just to say you played a MacKenzie is nuts.

 ;D

In any case, what also might be going on up here is that seeing "pedigreed" courses that aren't that great gives one a sense of how nuts it is to get too caught up in who the architect is of any course.  That is, courses like Green Hills can make one realize the truth that it's the course that matters, not who did it.

So I fully understand the mindset of San Diego area  architecture freaks, looking wistfully northward at courses like Green Hills and Peninula (Ross) and Sharp Park (MacKenzie) and Northwoods (Mackenzie) and Claremont (mixed bag but MacK did have some hand in it) etc. etc. etc.  You don't have arky names like that too much down there.  I just also do know that my brother who lives in Carlsbad and can't tell a redan from a sedan digs Aviara, has a great friend who's a member at RSF GC and plays there a lot, but calls Torrey Pines South his favorite course near him.  He also doesn't know Max Behr from Yogi Bear.  But wouldn't he be more the norm?

 ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 04:41:36 PM by Tom Huckaby »
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Mike Benham

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2006, 04:41:57 PM »
The real issue with Peninsula (Ross) and Green Hills (Mac) is not so much the design itself, is the relative severity of property it was built on.

If Peninsula, even with the cramped spaces was on a flatter piece of land, it would be deemed a sporty course, yes, a bit on the short side but many holes offering a fair risk / return challenge to them.

Green Hills has similarities to its Mac neighbor down the road, Pasatiempo.  Specifically, if you look at photos from its early history, you will see vacant land surrounding the layout.  Considering that Millbrae and Santa Cruz weren't the suburbs that they are today, it is a shame that the owners did not acquire an additional 20 - 30 acres that might have allowed for some additional latitude in the design.
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2006, 05:24:58 PM »
Tom, I DO look at who the arch. is before playing for the first time at a course because it gives me a sense of what's to come. But, I also try to look at the course for what it is and try not to get to caught up in who the arch. is and how "known" he is. I mentioned earlier this month that I'm looking to possibly join a Ted Robinson course that I really like, but can't stand all the other courses of his I've played. I try to look at a course on it's own merits reagrdless of who did it, but invariably, the greats seem to be done by the same Archs. over and over who consistently (or close to all the time) produced a great course and , most of the time, these courses seem to come from the "golden age".
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2006, 05:31:34 PM »
David:

Sure you know that, and I l know that, but tell it to my brother.

That's my weird point.

TH
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2006, 05:43:59 PM »
Tom, is your brothers preference Torrey before Rees or after?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2006, 05:49:51 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on October 09, 2006, 05:43:59 PM
Tom, is your brothers preference Torrey before Rees or after?

Oh man, best audible yuks of the day.

Ask him that question and the answer is:  what, they changed it?  Oh yeah, that's why it was closed for awhile... Well, I think it's pretty cool now.  Price went up though.  And who the hell is Rees Jones?

TH
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2006, 06:00:06 PM »
That's funny! I'm thinking of all the others around here that have the same WHO CARES attitude and didn't even realize it was closed! "But it's getting a U.S. Open! So it must be great!" ;D
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2006, 06:05:46 PM »
He'd say that also - great call.  He only knows it closed because he tried to play it and couldn't.

 ;D
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 06:06:05 PM by Tom Huckaby »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2006, 08:18:03 PM »
David,
The closest Alister MacKenzie ever got to Agua Caliente (TJCC) was playing matador with some of the those lovely "for-pay" Mexican beauties that were housed just off and above the 2nd turn of the race track when him and Robert Hunter visited Tijuana in March of 1927, all more then likely for a nice stiff drink and some good old fashion nooky during Prohibition times.

The current day routing is the same, even the bunker patterns match with the pre-opening aerial photo. The only thing is missing are some pretty special looking Billy Bell bunkers and the infamous mashie course which Walter Hagen, Gene Sarazen, Leo Diegal and a host of others would play exhibition matches on before the Agua Caliente Open.
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2006, 08:31:35 PM »
So Tommy can I assume from your comments that Mack. did not have anything to do w/ the course?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2006, 08:47:05 PM »
They've claimed it was MacKenzie. They even said they had a plan, yet they have never really proved this. The images, documentation, advertisments and other periodicals all support the theory that the course is and was Billy Bell's

If you do have something, please do let me know! Also, please forward me your number again! :)
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David Stamm

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Re:Green Hills CC
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2006, 10:07:47 PM »
Tommy I don't have any evidence it was Macks. I just have always been told by locals that it's a Mack. But I trust your opinion and insight more than the guys that have told me it's Mack's. I guess it's one of those local legends here that no one bothered to substantiate. Good to know. I've never played there, but after recalling photo's I've seen I would believe Billy Bell did it.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr
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