New Jersey Publics?.....

« **on:** October 05, 2006, 08:34:14 PM »

I wanted to try a new course this weekend here in NJ, and have not played any of the public courses in a long time. Any worth going to check out?
I live in Central Jersey and willing to drive a little while, if PA or NY has a good public that is worth checking I would go there as well.
Very curious for some suggestions...thanks

« **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2006, 09:01:13 PM »

Pine Barrens is probably your best bet in the area unless you are willing to travel to near Atlantic City where Twisted Dune is my favorite. Also, down I295 you'll find Scotland Run which is also high on the list of NJ publics. The Architects Club in Phillipsburg, NJ would be another interesting choice and on the other side of the river in Easton, PA Morgan Hill is a very interesting new course.

« **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2006, 09:21:12 PM »

I just played The Knoll in Parsippany, NJ and found it delightful. The double plateau 2nd was great fun as was the Eden (12 I think). The course definitely made me think about placing my shots and approaching from the correct areas because of the very bold bunkering. The green contouring was very interesting as well, if at time a bit mechanical. Next time I go I'll study up on hole "types" so I can identify some more (I think 3 is a Redan, and 6 a short). 18 was a great closer as well.

I'm not sure if non members can get out on the weekend, but we had no issues during the week. If you go its cash only so be prepared.

I really think I'm liking this Raynor/Banks thing.

« **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2006, 09:26:44 PM »

Quote from: Dave Bourgeois on October 05, 2006, 09:21:12 PM

I just played The Knoll in Parsippany, NJ and found it delightful. The double plateau 2nd was great fun as was the Eden (12 I think). The course definitely made me think about placing my shots and approaching from the correct areas because of the very bold bunkering. The green contouring was very interesting as well, if at time a bit mechanical. Next time I go I'll study up on hole "types" so I can identify some more (I think 3 is a Redan, and 6 a short). 18 was a great closer as well.

I'm not sure if non members can get out on the weekend, but we had no issues during the week. If you go its cash only so be prepared.

I really think I'm liking this Raynor/Banks thing.

I played forsgate this past weekend and it gets better and better to me. The Banks course is really one of the better courses in the State I think. I would argue if it was in a different area and either more private or public it would be a much more known and highly more praised. What a great course.
How are the conditions at The Knoll?

« **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2006, 09:55:30 PM »

Play Neshanic...it's conditions are at their best right now and you should have already.

Nice to hear from you.

S

« **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2006, 10:40:40 PM »

I thought the conditions were pretty good with the exception of the fairways on the front 9. It looked like they were still recovering from fall maintenance.

I really have to find a way to get out at Forsgate. I'm very interested to compare it to the Knoll.

« **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:09:48 PM »

Ballyowen is very good.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2006, 12:05:40 AM »

Sunset Valley in Pompton Plains (wayne, pequannock, take your pick) is a pretty nice public course, I would agree with the Architects and the Knoll, along with Atlantic City CC.

I didnt think Ballyowen was that great, I liked 9 holes (I think it was the front), the back nine was nothing special, filled with a lot of cookie cutter circlular bunkers......(I might have the nines wrong, not sure)

« **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2006, 06:58:10 AM »

Hominy Hill and Charlston Springs in Monmouth County. Wild Turkey is also fun.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 06, 2006, 09:02:49 AM »

Ditto on Hominy Hill and Pine Barrens. Would also throw Blue Heron into the mix in the AC area. Up in NY, I'm a big fan of Mansion Ridge. It's around 20 minutes from NJ.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:08:55 AM »

David:

Go to jerseygolfermag.com -- we just recently featured the top 25 public courses in the state.

The folks at Crystal Springs do run specials so you might be able to access the courses there (Ballyowen among them) for a bit less than peak times during the summer.

Agree with others on a few central Garden State choices.

Such as:

Heron Glen (Hunterdon County layout) - a real solid chocie and well done by Dan Schelgel
Neshanic Valley
High Bridge Hills
Quail Brook -- very inexpensive layout in Franklin Twsp -- just off I-287 and near to Rutgers Univ.
The Architect's Club is also a worthy play.

You can also highlight -- Hominy Hill in Colts Neck and Pine Barrens near Lakewood.

The Knoll is a mixed bag - the architecture is solid on a few holes -- the opening trio and the closing hole but th elayout needs a makeover and I salute George B's attempt to do so. I am a big time fan of the place but one will likely see Jesus before the management there decides to really upgrade what Banks originally provided.

In Pennsy -- just across the river off I-78 you have:

Morgan Hill

Hats off to Mark A in mentioning Sunset Valley -- gets little mentioning but Hal Purdy - yes, Hal Purdy of all people -- did a good job with this county-owned layout. The final five holes are among the best closing holes you can find in Jersey public golf.

« **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:49:21 AM »

Matt: You turned me on to Sea Oaks which I really enjoyed.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2006, 02:11:10 PM »

Jerry:

If you liked Sea Oaks -- you should also play a visit to the Vineyard at Renault -- an Ed Sheron layout that is on the west side of the GS Pkwy but in the same general vicinity.

Sea Oaks doesn't get much pub because it falls just outside the immediate AC area -- ditto for Vineyard.

One other plus with both courses is that they are not dead flat as so many of the southeastern NJ public courses area.

« **Reply #13 on:** October 06, 2006, 02:21:51 PM »

Matt,
How is the new course at Mercer Oaks?
The old one is very fine for a muni - how close is that to your top 25 list?
Cheers

« **Reply #14 on:** October 06, 2006, 02:28:31 PM »

Mike:

Both layouts at Mercer Oaks are nicely done -- especially the new one, however, the bar for public golf in the state is constanstly moving and the competition has certainly intensified with the more recent additions -- Vineyard at Renault is just one example -- ditto Neshanic Valley.

What's interesting in Jersey is the intensification in the taxpayer-owned side of the golf aisle -- led by the likes of Monmouth, Somerset & Morris Counties. Mercer is simply right behind these leaders IMHO.

« **Reply #15 on:** October 06, 2006, 05:25:43 PM »

Matt - we're starting up again at The Knoll (beginning on hole 2) on Monday (phew) with a new construction co - we'll be getting much more done now.

« **Reply #16 on:** October 06, 2006, 05:29:54 PM »

George - Great news about the Knoll! Having grown up on the Big Knoll I can say that in its hayday it rivaled any in the state. My hat is off to you if you can uncover the greatness again. Best of luck.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 06, 2006, 07:18:52 PM »

George B:

PRAISE JESUS INDEED !!!

For those who may not know much about The Knoll -- it's a fascinating Charles Banks design that grew out of The Great Depression and was a very promiment private club for much of its existence.

Like George B and Dean P, I am a huge fan of the potential to restore this layout to full glory.

Unfortunately, the powers-that-be have dragged their feet for so long that Jersey Golfer needed to drop the course from our most recent top 25 state public ratings. Potential has its side -- but results speak even louder.

The starting trio is a great threesome -- the totality of the 2nd green is indeed a sight to behold (let alone putting it!). The finishing hole is also a real closer with teeth -- ditto the superb long par-3 13th, to name just a few holes.

Best of luck George -- if anyone can do it for The Knoll it's you partner.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 06, 2006, 07:47:55 PM »

I know this has been asked a bunch of times, but I have never been out there. What is the difference between Knoll East and West?

http://www.parsippany.net/subpages/knoll/knoll.htm

Is it similar to Merion where the one course is vastly superior. I guess I am confused because everyone always refers to the Banks course as The Knoll, when it is actually The Knoll West?

« **Reply #19 on:** October 06, 2006, 09:01:44 PM »

Mike,

The Knoll West started as the private Knoll Country Club and has a very colorful history, prior to being turned over as a public course. Architecturally, there is much there to admire and it's great to hear that George is getting to green light to recover it.

The Knoll East is a public course for the community built by Hal Purdy in the early 70s (I believe) and although I haven't played it, the accounts I've seen indicate it's pretty horrid.

« **Reply #20 on:** October 06, 2006, 09:47:39 PM »

During tough financial times Gene Sarazen, who used to hang at the Knoll along with many celebs (including Muccis, father and son - hah), suggested that they build a muni to help fund the Upper Course ........ we often refer to th "real" Knoll as the Big Knoll, and yes, the Knoll West

we'll be putting some new tees in that will make the course een tougher

we try to forget there is a Knoll East - (bring your Hard Hat to play it) .... in all fairness though

it is really crammed in to minimal acreage and very marginal architecture

« **Reply #21 on:** October 06, 2006, 09:57:50 PM »

In spite of the Green Acres takeover, the bones are still amazing. Steamshovel did a spectacular job! Take the many Banks courses like Essex County, Forsgate, Hackensack, Knollwood and the 4th nine at Montclair then compile the best holes with extrodinary routing and you get the Knoll. Dave Marr the since deceased golf analyst would pick the Knoll in his top 10 best in the USA every year.

« **Reply #22 on:** October 06, 2006, 10:49:26 PM »

For the Knoll West course, do I need to be a member there to play it on Sunday?

« **Reply #23 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:10:46 PM »

No, but you do need to call ahead for a starting time. Due to the temps it might be easy enough to get on. It should be glorious this time of year with the wide array of colors.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 07, 2006, 11:39:03 AM »

Mike S:

The Knoll / East is simply a DISASTER in terms of architecture.
There are likely few courses in the USA which offer such a MEGA difference in terms of qualities when 36-hole facilities are paired together.

At Knoll East you need to wear goalie equipment as the place is nothing less than a shooting gallery.

You play Knoll East as a true sign of desperation. When George Bahto says the architecture there is "marginal" he is being veeeeeeeeery kind indeed.

The Knoll West has the potential to be nothing less than one of the very best public courses in NJ. The key will be in giving George B the kind of free hand that allows those inherent elements to come to the surface.

I am a big fan of the place -- it's history and what it offers. Right now -- the word potential hangs over the club's head --and we all know how potential can play out. Sometimes it does -- too many times it doesn't.

Best of luck to all involved because the pedigree of the course is indeed very special.

News:

David Panzarasa

Steve_ Shaffer

Dave Bourgeois

David Panzarasa

Steve Lapper

Dave Bourgeois

Dan_Callahan

Mark Arata

Dean Paolucci

SB

Matt_Ward

Jerry Kluger

Matt_Ward

Mike Nuzzo

Matt_Ward

George_Bahto

Dean Paolucci

Matt_Ward

Mike_Sweeney

Mike_Cirba

George_Bahto

Dean Paolucci

David Panzarasa

Dean Paolucci

Matt_Ward