I remember someone saying how tough it is for those that aren't GCAs to tell WHERE the land was moved from and to where it was moved?

What are some tell tale signs where you can say "Aha!  They moved earth here"?

I look at the base of trees, that for me usually works.

If the land is rolly polly, and the fairway is flat, that is a giveaway in reverse.

I look for hard edges and at counter angles

Larry Kelto was nice enough to share this exercise of before and after photos, featuring Dick Durrance's images of the 8th at Ballyneal.

Have at it!

cary lickentstein has a good point if the site is treed. look at the base of trees that are clearly older than the course.

My technique is to look as far out as necessary for what is undeniably natural grade (the grades before the course was built) and then start to work your way inward towards the architecture. If it's hard to tell where natural grades stop and architecture begins the architect has done a good job "tying in" or "tying out" what he made with what is natural grade. If there are juxtapositions where it's very easy to tell where natural grade ends and man-made earth formations begin, then you can easily pick up what an architect did and where.

Tom:

Other than those great "before" pictures of Cypress Point -- which you would have to admit, is an unusually dramatic site -- have you ever seen before and after pictures of a course where you could really tell very much?

I haven't.  If there is much vegetation to be cleared, it hides all the features; and if there isn't much vegetation, then you have to have an exceptional piece of property to have contours which stand out visually in the open ground.  What could you really tell from Adam's before and after pictures above, other than it wasn't so obvious where the hole should go when the vegetation was all uniform?  [At least, I think Paul's compliment about it was facetious.]

There ARE some great pictures from overseas of architects literally blowing down mountains to build a golf course, though.

I remember on the drive through CO and western NEB remarkign with Adam how many great holes there were waiting to be born out there.  I also see a little bit of how you "melt it down" to buiild the hole.

What about 9 at Ballyneal?  The one Adam calls the great meltdown...are there before and afters of that?

Tom:

There is a giant exposed dune on one of your holes on the back nine of Pacific Dunes, the one where you have to walk a little backwards and then up the hill to the next tee.

One of the caddies said he heard you dynamited that dune to get that exposed look. True or Myth?

Cary

My technique is to look as far out as necessary for what is undeniably natural grade (the grades before the course was built) and then start to work your way inward towards the architecture. If it's hard to tell where natural grades stop and architecture begins the architect has done a good job "tying in" or "tying out" what he made with what is natural grade. If there are juxtapositions where it's very easy to tell where natural grade ends and man-made earth formations begin, then you can easily pick up what an architect did and where.

See that's what I try to do...look around at the surrounds and see how they flow with each other, than look at the course and see if it follows the same natural flow...

"Tom:

Other than those great "before" pictures of Cypress Point -- which you would have to admit, is an unusually dramatic site -- have you ever seen before and after pictures of a course where you could really tell very much?"

TomD:

I think you can tell enough, particularly if the before photos are taken from the same place as the after photos which I would prefer to be where the tee goes looking right down the hole what will be the hole.

The before photo of Cypress's #9 is one of the best I've ever seen because you really can tell in some pretty good detail that Mackenzie did almost nothing on it. It's a really unique landform for an entire hole and thank God he recognized it, since one would probably never call Cypress's 9th a "normal" golf hole.

Tom P:  If you take the before and after pictures from the tee box, you are very liable not to be able to pick anything out, because that's the one angle from which any architect will be conscious of trying to conceal their work.

You generally notice the changes to the earthwork when you are looking from an oblique angle, or from the green back toward the tee, because most architects don't pay attention from there.

Can you think of any pictures other than Cypress Point where you could tell what had happened?  I should get someone to download my before picture of 13 at Pacific Dunes so you could see how little was done there.

TomD...I wasn't being facetious [thank God for spell check]...but just joking around after a tuff day.

...and as I have said before, I think its a great course that's just going to keep getting better.