Seve versus Sergio.

« **on:** September 26, 2006, 11:15:00 AM »

For those of you that witnessed Severiano Ballesteros emerge on the world golf scene and (yet still young and lucid enough

) witness Sergio Garcia's development after his equally meteoric emergence, can you compare and contrast the two as it pertains to Ryder Cup and Major Championship golf?

« **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:22:35 AM »

Seve was runner up in The Open Championship at 19

Seve won the Open Championship at 22

Seve won the Masters at 23

Seve won 5 major championships.

Seve almost single handed changed golf in Europe.

Game set and match -

« **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:23:52 AM »

JES II:

No way jose !!!

Seve is MILES ahead of Sergio.

Unfortunately, too many people have short memories and may not comprehend the impact -- on & off course that Seve demonstrated.

Unfortunately, we here in America were not able to see Seve exhibit the kind of play he fashioned so well in Europe for so many years. I blame the parochial nature of Deane Beaman for that and to an extent the stubborness of Seve as well. We caught glimpses and thank heavens Seve was able to play at Westchester CC for so many years as his US Open warm-up event.

Sergio has time to narrow the gap but to even mention Sergio in the same sentence as Seve now is indeed a major error on your part.

« **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:32:09 AM »

Did I somehow suggest they should be considered equals? Correct me if I'm wrong gentlemen, but didn't I just ask for a comparison of their careers up to this point and an outlook on Sergio for the future?

Would it have been better if I simply said...If Sergio has been able to explode on the world golf scene with a similar performance to Seve at Birkdale in '76, and play as he has in 4 Ryder Cups (frankly looking like the best player in the world), why has he not had the success Seve had in Majors during that first 7 or 8 years of his career? Can he get up to that level? Is it unfair to put those expectations on anyone?

« **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:42:47 AM »

Yes it's unfair. Seve was an iconic, great and original golfer. A self taught player with extraordinary imagination. A genius. In his own way as important a player in the history of golf as Nicklaus, Palmer and maybe even Woods. I very much doubt if any similar golfer will be seen again in these days of bomb and gouge, where all young golfers are taught to swing pretty much the same way.

« **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:44:54 AM »

Jes - to quote you

"Sergio Garcia's development after his equally meteoric emergence, can you compare and contrast the two as it pertains to Ryder Cup and Major Championship golf?"

I would say they were not equally meteoric emergences.

The only comparable emergence since Seve would be Tiger and he went on way past Seve. Seve was a shotmaker for the ages. Only Trevino could think of trying some of the shots that Seve routinely managed to pull off. He was a true prodigy who was feared when he got near the lead. Sergio has a long way to go to reach that level when he can't look behind him to find a partner in foresomes or fourball.

« **Reply #6 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:45:00 AM »

Would you say Sergio swings the same as Adam Scott?

Was the way Seve played (and won) as much a factor in his aura as the simple fact that he did?

« **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:51:22 AM »

Throughout his career, Seve was a guy that you could not take your eyes off of if he was on the course. In that respect, he was like Tiger or Arnie, though for somewhat different reasons.

Garcia just is not, has not been, nor will be that kind of figure in golf, even if he begins to win majors in bunches. There's nothing wrong with him, but he is just not the compelling figure that Seve was.

« **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:54:46 AM »

In an odd way Seve's last Ryder Cup appearance as a player at Oak Hill summed up his genius. By that time his long game had collapsed and it was a struggle to keep thenball in play. He went out first against Tom Lehman and frankly, played like an 18 handicapper. However, somehow, he kept his match alive for 15 holes with a short game that was, even then, little short of miraculous (and this was before 60 degree wedges were de rigeur). So many times he looked out of a hole before conjuring a recovery that didn't appear possible. This was a player who believed no shot was impossible and who's game very nearly justified that belief.

He also had extraordinary charisma and an incredible fighting spirit. Although Paul Azinger might disagree I can't imagine many people didn't warm to Seve.

« **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2006, 11:57:42 AM »

And the point of all this Geoff is because I want to know why that is.

About their respective emergences, Seve finished second in the British Open to the Johnny Miller in 1976 as a 19 year old, correct? Sergio finished second in the PGA to Tiger in 1999 as a 19 year old. Sergio also won twice on the European Tour that year. That seems meteoric to me. Seve was in his third year as a pro in 1976 and won one time. Phenomenal stuff, but to say Sergio does not compare at that point in time is just inaccurate. Remember, I am trying to figure out where Sergio is of course as compared to Seve.

Hopefully the links work.

http://www.europeantour.com/publish.sps?syndicatorguid=&rmasiteinstanceguid=&pagegid=%7B9D8C05D5-C670-4B56-9906-E18E922EB1D8%7D&playerid=8&seasontitle=1976

http://www.europeantour.com/publish.sps?syndicatorguid=&rmasiteinstanceguid=&pagegid=%7B9D8C05D5-C670-4B56-9906-E18E922EB1D8%7D&playerid=487&seasontitle=1999

« **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:01:20 PM »

Quote from: JES II on September 26, 2006, 11:57:42 AM

And the point of all this Geoff is because I want to know why that is.

About their respective emergences, Seve finished second in the British Open to the Johnny Miller in 1976 as a 19 year old, correct? Sergio finished second in the PGA to Tiger in 1999 as a 19 year old. Sergio also won twice on the European Tour that year. That seems meteoric to me. Seve was in his third year as a pro in 1976 and won one time. Phenomenal stuff, but to say Sergio does not compare at that point in time is just inaccurate. Remember, I am trying to figure out where Sergio is of course as compared to Seve.

Hopefully the links work.

http://www.europeantour.com/publish.sps?syndicatorguid=&rmasiteinstanceguid=&pagegid=%7B9D8C05D5-C670-4B56-9906-E18E922EB1D8%7D&playerid=8&seasontitle=1976

http://www.europeantour.com/publish.sps?syndicatorguid=&rmasiteinstanceguid=&pagegid=%7B9D8C05D5-C670-4B56-9906-E18E922EB1D8%7D&playerid=487&seasontitle=1999

As 19 year olds, the comparison is close, though Garcia was hardly the charismatic figure that Ballesteros was. As 26 yr. olds, though, Garcia is not on the radar by comparison to Seve.

« **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:05:26 PM »

Jes,

Yeah, near misses in majors, usually from failings on Sunday, just don't count as a stunning emergence.

I recall the Ryder Cup in '95. To beat the crowds, I actually followed Seve on his practice round and he was terrible, but short game did save him as Mark notes. What I really recall during that week was his outlandish gamesmanship.

There were some odd noises/movements at wrong times that seemed to be him disturbing his opponent. There were a few challenges as to who was away. And he repeatedly made his opponents line up short putts, only to concede them just as they prepared to putt.

Sergio's fist pumps and even pre-Cup bravado about Tigers record are mild in comparison to the shennanigans that Seve pulled. Both Larry Nelson and Lanny Wadkins told me that they were eager to play Seve, begging the captain to let them have a crack at him, which kind of hints that the captains do work together to get great pairings.

OT, but with Larry's RC record, had he had any flair at all, he could have been an American RC icon on the order of Seve. One hell of a competitor. Of course, if he had any flair at all, he should have been a captain at one point. However, he was judged too quiet to be effective. Not that anything else has worked well for the Americans......

« **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:09:33 PM »

Quote from: Mark Pearce on September 26, 2006, 11:54:46 AM

Although Paul Azinger might disagree I can't imagine many people didn't warm to Seve.

I wonder if that's true. No question about the charisma and everything else positive, but I wonder how many of his competitors really warmed to him. By the way, people seem pretty warm with Sergio, too?

A.G. Do you really not think Sergio plays in a swashbuckling manner that would be magnetic if he starts winning Majors? It may be different that Seve, but it sure can be entertaining.

No question, he comes off as a whinning cry baby in worldwide individual events, and I am not a fan at all, but I'd bet if he were to win a few Majors the comparisons would be endless. The winning is the key, and that's the whole point of my thread, why can he play as he does in the Ryder Cup, but fall so far short individually on those occassions when he gets in the hunt in a Major?

Is it the Michelle Wie syndrome? Did it actually start with Sergio? When did he devote full (or at least most) time to the US Tour?

« **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:10:47 PM »

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on September 26, 2006, 12:01:20 PM

As 19 year olds, the comparison is close, though Garcia was hardly the charismatic figure that Ballesteros was. As 26 yr. olds, though, Garcia is not on the radar by comparison to Seve.

A.G.

Not to be rude, but no shit. The whle point of this is because I am looking for speculation as to why. Any thoughts?

« **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:18:06 PM »

Jeff,

Not awarding Larry Nelson a captaincy is part of the mindset Jackie Burke talked about in GD (although Larry Nelson was not part of his comments). The PGA is running a circus instead of trying to win a golf competition.

Do you think those tactics of Seve's are what so endeared him to his competitors? Do you think those tactics were reserved only for Ryder Cup years?

I loved Seve as much as anyone as I started watching and playing golf in the 80's, and I do not love Sergio now.

« **Reply #15 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:21:23 PM »

This reminds me of comparing Arnold Palmer to Dean Beaman...I've watched Beaman beat Palmer in a match but I still rather lose in Arnie's shoes than win in Dean's..

« **Reply #16 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:29:52 PM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on September 26, 2006, 12:05:26 PM

And he repeatedly made his opponents line up short putts, only to concede them just as they prepared to putt.

Jeff -

I had never heard of this tactic, and the more I think about it the more clever and devastating it becomes.

Standing over a short one wondering if it is going to be conceded, waiting for it to be conceded? Absolutely classic.

« **Reply #17 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:31:22 PM »

Now we're talking. Is it just a matter of media driven expectations? I mean, the guy had a prety awesome resume as a 19 year old, was there reason not to have high expectations?

JK, where did I favorably Sergio to Seve when all inputs are considered? I did so in segments of their careers to try to get to the question of why not in the Majors? Which is obviously an extremely significant factor.

« **Reply #18 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:37:06 PM »

Quote from: JES II on September 26, 2006, 12:10:47 PM

Quote from: A.G._Crockett on September 26, 2006, 12:01:20 PM

As 19 year olds, the comparison is close, though Garcia was hardly the charismatic figure that Ballesteros was. As 26 yr. olds, though, Garcia is not on the radar by comparison to Seve.

A.G.

Not to be rude, but no shit. The whle point of this is because I am looking for speculation as to why. Any thoughts?

JES,
Didn't mean to waste your time. Your original post asked us to compare and contrast. I guess I misunderstood; I thought you meant compare and contrast. Maybe you could restate exactly what you want to know about the two.

« **Reply #19 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:45:00 PM »

Well A.G. your first response compared their ability to "not let you take your eyes off them". I asked about Ryder Cup and Major Championships. And then you contributed that as 19 year olds they were close (most would argue Sergio was ahead), but as 26 year old Seve was miles ahead. Thanks, but I went and found the evidence that supports your comments. So we agree. What you have not addressed is the point of all this which I clarified in reply #3, in bold type.

« **Reply #20 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:50:35 PM »

Has this board deteriorated to the point that rather than discuss architecture we are forced to describe why we loved Seve...Isn't it anuff just that we did.

« **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:53:42 PM »

Jes

The answer to your bold type question is simple.

Seve was a great clutch putter. He made everything of importance and his opponents knew he was going to make them. Sergio has the imagination around the greens but to date not ON the greens. Seve was a prodigy.

I saw Seve in person twice. Once in his last playoff win at Westchester CC when he watched his opponents layup on the short par 4 10th (first hole for normal play). The tee was up a bit so it played 300-305 yards. Seve hit a driver with a running draw that ended up in the front left bunker. He calmly blasted out to a couple of feet and the tournament was his. I next saw him on Thursday morning of the 1997 Masters. It was so painful to watch him play from the trees for two holes that we had to move on to another group.

« **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2006, 12:55:16 PM »

Good luck, Jim, I've been asking a similar question of the whole European team for 2 days and no one's answered it yet.

My own theory is that there is all kinds of pressure and attitude. I'd guess Seve thrived on all competition, somewhat like Michael Jordan. Stories about MJ have him so competitive that he would refuse to lose to anyone even in practice, almost physically beating up on lesser players, that he would cheat at cards to beat someone's Grandma.

Sergio seems to relish the team pressure of the Ryder Cup, but not the individual pressure of majors. Maybe it's the fact that in team competition, he can't get all the blame if he fails, so he relaxes more.

I do think if he ever figures it out, he will start winning majors, maybe at a Phil-like pace, as we may never see someone win at a Tiger-like pace in our lifetimes.

And I think one could make similar arguments for Clarke, Westwood, Donald, Casey, etc., though the latter two are maybe too young to make that case.

« **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2006, 01:11:28 PM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on September 26, 2006, 12:50:35 PM

Has this board deteriorated to the point that rather than discuss architecture we are forced to describe why we loved Seve...Isn't it anuff just that we did.

If you want to be "forced' I could have that arranged, but for now just realize that I don't care a bit why you love Seve, I am wondering why he was able to transition from prodigy to all time great in both team and individual formats while Sergio is truly on track for an unbelievable Ryder Cup career (all time points leader in a couple more Cups) but falls flat in the heat of a Sunday afternoon in Major Championships.

I think Mr.'s Childs and Pazin just provided pretty strong answers that make alot of sense. Do you have anything to add? About anything?

« **Reply #24 on:** September 26, 2006, 01:24:01 PM »

Quote from: JES II on September 26, 2006, 12:45:00 PM

Well A.G. your first response compared their ability to "not let you take your eyes off them". I asked about Ryder Cup and Major Championships. And then you contributed that as 19 year olds they were close (most would argue Sergio was ahead), but as 26 year old Seve was miles ahead. Thanks, but I went and found the evidence that supports your comments. So we agree. What you have not addressed is the point of all this which I clarified in reply #3, in bold type.

Geoffrey Childs covers it perfectly. Seve was one of the great putters who ever lived, and at his best in the clutch. Sergio is a mediocre putter at best for high level professional golf, and gets much, much worse in the clutch, at least to this point in his career. Will he ever reach Ballesteros' level? Not unless he scores better on the weekend in major championships.

News:

JESII

Geoffrey Childs

Matt_Ward

JESII

Mark Pearce

Geoffrey Childs

JESII

A.G._Crockett

Mark Pearce

JESII

A.G._Crockett

Jeff_Brauer

JESII

JESII

JESII

John Kavanaugh

Michael Moore

JESII

A.G._Crockett

JESII

John Kavanaugh

Geoffrey Childs

George Pazin

JESII

A.G._Crockett