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T_MacWood

Great Scot
« on: September 24, 2006, 12:32:36 AM »
Who was the last great Sottish champion? James Braid?

Why has Scotland produced so few great players in the last 100 years?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2006, 02:28:49 AM »
Why so few? Could it be not that they have produced so few, but that the rest of the world joined them in the 20th century in playing the game with passion and so we just developed many more?

Scotland is, after all, a small country and so the numbers are limited when one compares them to America alone, no less elsewhere.

Other countries have developed great players who did, and do now, compete on successfully on a global basis. I think the only exception to this is South Africa. Considering the number of courses in the country and limited number of players, to have had as many multiple major championship winners in the past 50+ years is remarkable.

Also, one must consider the exodus of Scottish professionals to America, especially after WW I. That had to have had an effect.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2006, 02:58:40 AM »
Tom
What kind of bite are you looking for ? .

Something like , surely Monty must be "great" because he whoops American arse's every two years ? .

I have no idea why Americans think the rest of the world must live to their idea of what and whats not "GREAT" .

Best Regards
Brian

TEPaul

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2006, 07:47:48 AM »
"Why has Scotland produced so few great players in the last 100 years?"

Tom MacWood:

Maybe it's because around 1900 (a bit over 100 years ago) all the great Scotsmen golfers and architects like Willie Park Jr became so influenced by things like "Arts and Crafts" glassware, wallpaper and English "wild" cottage gardens, Luytens houses, William Morris, George Riddell and his Country Life magazine they just became less interested in the playing of the game.   ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 07:50:04 AM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2006, 10:00:41 AM »
Because they never get to play on any of the diverse designs, created by artists like Jim Engh and Ken Dye.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Alfie

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2006, 03:42:24 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Who was the last great Sottish champion? James Braid?

Colin Montgomery - of course !

Why has Scotland produced so few great players in the last 100 years?

John Panton, Sam Torrance, Sandy Lyle, RDBM (Ronnie) Shade, Eric Brown, Bernard Gallagher, etc...were all "Great" players in my eyes.

I'm curious as to where you're leading to with these questions Tom ? The Scotsman newspaper ran for six days with a series of articles by Mike Aitken which was supposedly designed to examine "The State of Scottish Golf" - but turned out to be nothing less than an examination of our elite players and why Scotland wasn't producing Tiger MacWoods and MacEls's by the barrow load ?
Brian states a good point about what, and what not - is great ?

IMO, The Scotsman let Scottish golf down badly by the non-confrontational road they elected to follow, ie ; not a mention of the technology aspects ?

Scotland may have given the sport to the world. I don't see how we can be expected to produce the best players too ?

Alfie

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2006, 03:51:44 PM »
Canada doesn't produce the best hockey players anymore, either. I think the sport of hockey is still healthy up there.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 04:16:48 PM »
Who won the 2006 US Amateur?
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Phil_the_Author

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 04:22:09 PM »
Gary,  now THAT is how to join the board!

Welcome to the fray.

TEPaul

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 05:14:24 PM »
"I'm curious as to where you're leading to with these questions Tom?"

Alfie:

Oh, he's probably trying to sneak in with some other dumb angle on proving, again, that a bunch of English A/C wallpaper and glassware makers, A/C "wild" cottage garden designers and A/C building architects, all who lived around London, are the most important influence on golf course architecture of the Golden Age.  ;)

He probably thinks the A/C Movement was the single most powerful influence on the development of the Hula Hoop and the TWIST too.

Alfie

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 05:27:45 PM »
Tom Paul,

"Oh, he's probably trying to sneak in with some other dumb angle on proving, again, that a bunch of English A/C wallpaper and glassware makers, A/C "wild" cottage garden designers and A/C building architects, all who lived around London, are the most important influence on golf course architecture of the Golden Age. " ;)
He probably thinks the A/C Movement was the single most powerful influence on the development of the Hula Hoop and the TWIST too.


Ahh. You two guys are priceless, but I'm not getting involved in your "Golden Age" disputes. Interesting though they are !
But thanks for sending me to bed with a smile on ma coupon, Tom. :)

Alfie

T_MacWood

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 07:02:30 PM »
Alfie
The question came to mind when they gave the nation breakdown for the Ryder Cup team. A couple Swedes, a couple Spaniards, three Irishmen and quite a few Englishmen. It seemed ironic to me that there was one Scot, the home of golf and so many great courses, and a country that produced so many great champions in the early years. What happened?

I wondered why Spain, Australia and S. Africa produce so many recent champions but not Scotland. And with all due respect to Montgomerie and his wonderful Ryder Cup record and European tour record, IMO true greatness is measured by multiple major championships.

Is it weather...population....junior programs...the type of courses...the mentality of Scotsman or something else?

I did miss another great champion....Tommy Armour. Was he the last great Scottish champion?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 07:06:53 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Perhaps the answer is, because it's easier to put in long practice hours in Orlando and Phoenix than it is in Scotland.

I think the wind may also be a factor.

I think it makes one play a different type of game.

TEPaul

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 07:14:07 PM »
"I did miss another great champion....Tommy Armour. Was he the last great Scottish champion?"

Tom MacWood:

No big deal---don't worry about forgetting about a Scottish champion of Tommy Armour's stature. He seemed to feel he probably was one of the good champions of his era but he always said that paled in comparison to the fact that he was one of my Godfathers.  ;)  
 
 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 07:15:02 PM by TEPaul »

Alfie

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 08:10:55 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Maybe if they'd stuck with the old GB & Ireland format, there might be more Scots in the team, although I'd struggle to say who at the present time, to be honest. I remarked to my son while watching today on TV that the Ryder Cup was a formality for the US until that vital switch to Europe.

What happened ? I suppose the competition got better and stronger from other countries as they developed into golf - while we Scots sat on our arses and took the sport for granted ?

You do make a highly debatable point in regard to the Scottish perspective, IMO.

I do, however, disagree with your definition of greatness. Jimmy Adams was another great Scot who famously quoted "If you can't be first - be second !"

you ask ; "Is it weather...population....junior programs...the type of courses...the mentality of Scotsman or something else?"

IMO - all of these and something else ! :)

The 'something else' incorporates yet another "technology" thread though  ;)

One thing that comes to mind is support. Over there (US), I believe you know how to nurture, develop and support talent / inventiveness. Over here in Scotland, you either support Rangers or Celtic  ;D Yes, mentality has a lot to do with it, Tom !

I also think Pat is right to say that we in Scotland are brought up learning a different game from the typical PGA tours of the world and their set ups of courses ?


Alfie

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2006, 09:45:54 PM »
Alfie,

You hit it on the head. Young Scots aspire to play for Rangers and Celtic before starting to to play the sissy game of golf.

With a population a little less than Missouri the Scots have Paul Lowrie, the other has Hale Irwin and Tom Watson.

Bob

Troy Alderson

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2006, 10:41:32 PM »
Gentlemen,

I would take an educated guess and say that the reason is that Scotland is a rather depressed nation as a whole.  The economy may have something to do with the lack of more great Scot golfers.

Another reason may be that the Scots simply do not view golf the same way the rest of the world does.  May be its more of a leasure activity than a way to make a living.

Thoughts?

Troy

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2006, 01:10:14 AM »
""IMO true greatness is measured by multiple major championships. ""

Tom
I could have pretty well guessed that would be your criteria for greatness .

So how many Great Scots would there be if 3/4 of those major championships were held in Scotland Tom ? .

Level the playing field then ask your question .

Best Regards
Brian




Jim Nugent

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2006, 05:30:31 AM »
The explanations being offered make me wonder how Bernard Langer became such a great golfer.  He grew up in a place with about zero golf tradition, almost no courses, less-than-ideal weather, where football (soccer) was every boy's dream.  Here is part of brief bio I saw on him...

"Langer grew up in a small rural community in the mountainous area of Bavaria. Although his father, Erwin, was a bricklayer, the family still struggled to make a decent living. In his autobiography, Langer recounts that he cannot remember ever being given pocket money. Indeed a shortage of cash was a constant factor in Langer's life until he finally made a name for himself in golf.

Langer's introduction to golf came when he was just 8. In order to earn some spending money, he followed in his brother's footsteps by caddying at the Ausburg Golf and Country Club, 5 miles from his home. Once he began earning money, he spent more and more time at the club. During slack times, he practised behind the caddy shack with a few old clubs and soon demonstrated a natural talent. He spent so much time at the club that he must have been considered one of the fixtures. When he turned 14, Langer was set to leave school when opportunity knocked. He managed to secure the position of assistant professional at Munich Golf Club. Even luckier was the real opportunity to train and become a true professional under the guidance of club professional Heinz Freiburg. Suddenly Langer was a professional golfer.

Eventually Langer was faced with the decision of pursuing a career of a club professional or a playing professional. Of course, he chose the latter and won his first tournament, the German National Open, in 1974. With sponsorship from Jan Brugelman, then a golf enthusiast, Langer began the hard slog of establishing himself playing tournaments around Europe, living out of a suitcase, and travelling on a shoestring budget. Langer had the motivation that golf was the only way of making a career for himself..."

 

T_MacWood

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2006, 06:05:04 AM »
Brian
Ignore the American majors....there were very few Americans playing in the British Open in the 30s, 40s and 50s. You'll find S. Africans, Australians and Englishmen dominating. In the 60s an Argentine and Kiwi found a way to win it. Why?

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Scot
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2006, 07:21:40 AM »
I’m surprised Alfie hasn’t defined the real reason.

Here’s my hypothesis.

A hundred years or more ago Scotland’s professional golf players could profit from testing the products of the leading edge of technology for the club and ball makers. Once the Gutty and hickory shafts were replaced by the Haskel and steel shafts and the technology developed in the US instead of at the clubmakers of Fife and Lothian then the Scots lost their advantage in testing the latest technology and have been playing catch up ever since.

In other words the US have the advantage of having first bite at the latest technological advantages.

Also in Scotland there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent to the US College system of upgrading their best players. Even Monty was a honed in the USA.

Bring back the Gutty and Hickories with Match Play on Links courses and the Bravehearts will conquer again. :)

TEPaul

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2006, 08:04:03 AM »
"....there were very few Americans playing in the British Open in the 30s, 40s and 50s. You'll find S. Africans, Australians and Englishmen dominating. In the 60s an Argentine and Kiwi found a way to win it. Why?"

Why?

My God, is it possible that Tom MacWood knows as little about the history of competitive golf or appreciates the realities of it as he does about the history of golf course architecture?

By the second decade of the 20th century golf had become a world-wide game and its competitive records reflect that fact.

Just look at almost any other sport in the world that went global and one can see the same results against those of any other particular region of origin.

Allan Hutton

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2006, 09:37:26 AM »
Gentlemen,

I would take an educated guess and say that the reason is that Scotland is a rather depressed nation as a whole.  The economy may have something to do with the lack of more great Scot golfers.

Another reason may be that the Scots simply do not view golf the same way the rest of the world does.  May be its more of a leasure activity than a way to make a living.

Thoughts?

Troy

Point 1: I don't think economic circumstance has much to do with it.  Golf is very cheap (comparitively vs North America) in Scotland.  Perhaps in lack of formal instruction, college programs etc..this may be a slight factor.

Point 2: I agree with totally.  Growing up in Scotland, golf with my friends was very much a game.  In Canada, and perhaps the US, golf always seems to be a competition.  In Scotland, I'd go out, whack the ball around and have fun. Here (in Canada now) my playing partners are constantly focused on some form of match, full rules etc.  Where did the joy of hitting the ball go??

My take: Scotland view golf as a game, a pastime to be enjoyed, in North America it is viewed as a sport, a structured competition.

T_MacWood

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2006, 09:44:45 AM »
TE
Everyone understands the game is global and has been global for some time...but as far as I know the Scots didn't stop playing the game as it spread.

I've seen estimates on the number of golfers in Scotland at around 600,000. Australia has abput 1,100,000 golfers, based on that you'd think that for every two major championships won by an Australian there would one for a Scot. That is not the case. There are about 200,000 to 300,000 golfers in South Africa and Spain. You'd think those numbers would favor more Scottish champions...not the case.

My question is with Scotland's golfing heritage, number of great courses and most courses per capita why hasn't she produced more great golfers?

Alfie

Re:Great Scot
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2006, 07:26:49 PM »
Tom MacWood asks ; "My question is with Scotland's golfing heritage, number of great courses and most courses per capita why hasn't she produced more great golfers? "

That's virtually the question The Scotsman newspaper (Mike Aitken) was trying to answer Tom - and they didn't ! I certainly don't know the answer (if there is a reasonable explanation ?) and to be honest, I'm not that concerned about our elite players. It's the non-elites I'm concerned about in Scotland and their future ?

I'm sure Scotland will, some day, once again produce a worthy and consistent champion. If I were a member of the Scottish PGA I would be concerned as to why we don't have "that" many good pro's on the tour ? Stangely enough, I don't think the SPGA was asked an opinion by Mike Aitken ?

John Chilver-Stainer makes a good point relating to the fall of our equipment industry in Scotland and I'd agree, that has had something to do with it.

Jim's bio on Langer answers most of the question for me. You're either born to be a champion - or your not. And you can be born in the US / Canada / China or.... Luxemburg ?

If you find the answer Tom, please advise The Scotsman plc immediately  ;)

Alfie.

ps ; sorry for not keeping up with these threads. :(

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