News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


John Kavanaugh

Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« on: September 23, 2006, 09:35:55 PM »
Yes this relates to golf course architecture....How do you think the advances in military technology from the Civil War in America to WWII affected military strategy.  Did fundamentals remain the same...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 10:14:29 PM »
John,

Earlier this summer Jen and I visited the battlefield at Gettysburg for the first time.   I had no idea prior that it would be such an emotional, stirring, humbling experience.  Throughout the day we found ourselves speaking in whispered hushes, and it's almost as if the entire town is hallowed ground.    

It became very clear in touring the various battlefield sites and envisioning what must have taken place that much of the fighting likely devolved into hand-to-hand combat among thousands of men.  Given the need to gain any advantage in such critical circumstances, it seemed that the most important strategy was to try to gain the high ground, where the visual vantage would provide at least some physical cover and possibly better sightlines on the oncoming enemy.   Barring that, the best it seemed one could do was to find low-lying areas, such as a ditch or hollow, to provide some degree of marginal safety, at least from the perspective of not being an easy visual target.  

Today in this country we have the luxury of sitting here discussing using the land strategically for our recreational pursuits.  There are many philosophical parallels between golf and warfare, and how to use strategy on the land to gain advantage over an opponent, yet I would also say that any direct comparison overlooks the fact that the men who fought these battles were brave in a way that I can't possibly fathom.  
 

Kyle Harris

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 10:26:13 PM »
John,

Very interesting question, and as Wayne and a few others can attest, I've often tried to connect golf architecture to military strategy.

I spent two summers in HS working as a tour guide intern for the NPS at Gettysburg.

To answer your question: the rudiments of military strategy have remained largely unchanged since the Napoleanic era, which is often considered to the be "dawn" of modern strategy. The objective is to still hold a battle line and to attempt to put the opponent in a disadvantage by applying a larger amount of force to the weak spot.

The weak spot is typically the flank (end of the lines) or some salient point (a "wedge" shape in the line). Use of terrain for defense and offense is still fundamentally the same as well.

However, the changes have come in speed and distance with technology. During the Civil War era, close fighting was necessary. It is a myth to think that Civil War era commanders were not adapting new tactics to the new weapons of the era, they knew full well the weapons capability. The problem was with communication - which during the time required all parties to be within ear shot. While the rifle allow for more accurate shooting at a longer distance, there was no way to effectively and effeciently communicate orders to the men without lining them up in the old style.

It may also be interesting to compare the implementation of tactics by the British and Germans during World War I and compare it to that of the lessons learned in the American Civil War. The Civil War saw the first large scale use of trenches (Sieges of Vicksburg, and Petersburg/Richmond being the most prolific example as well as Battles like Chattanooga, Spotsylvania Court House and Cold Harbor) and the lessons learned by American commanders in the field in the 1860s would be relearned by their British and German counterparts in the 1910s. Unfortunately for the British and Germans, the machine gun and even better weaponry than that of the Civil War had been invented.

So yes, the fundamentals have remained the same. It is the scale and speed at which they are implemented that has changed.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 10:28:53 PM »
What I'm not sure about is how even with the advances in technology the movement of men across the south was much different than movements across Europe...How was the significance of the Battle of Gettysburg any different the the Battle of the Bulge...Did technology make any difference.

note:  I posted the above without reading Kyles above..
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 10:30:27 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 10:41:23 PM »
John,

I'm quite sure that Kyle can answer your question from a much more informed standpoint than I can as he's made a study of it.

I would say that if you haven't been to Gettysburg before it's something to see and experience.   Yes, there are parallels in strategy that would engage your golf architectural imagination, but much more overwhelming and relevant is the fact that it grabs you and shakes your sense of humanity and perspective.  

It simply leaves you in awe and makes you thankful for the lives and luxuries we have today.  It also makes one a bit sad that somehow over time we seem to have demonized our enemies, as it was very clear that despite their differences, the men who fought each other to the death on this field of battle held each other in high esteem, and there was a civility and nobilty even in the face of savagery, ultimate vulnerability, and the shadow of an early death.

Bob_Huntley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 11:55:08 PM »
John,

I studied military history when I was a very young offficer in the Southern Rhodesia Staff Corps. I wrote a note about this on GCA some years ago. The failure of the British General Staff  to have learned the lessons of the American Civil War was an absolute disaster. General Lord Haig, who was lionized post 1918, should have been stripped of his rank and titles. His sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of lives was almost a criminal act.

The trench warfare of the time reminds me of cross bunkers on every fairway.

Bob

peter_p

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2006, 12:13:02 AM »
 I think the analogy is that we are always fighting the last war, whether on the golf course or the battlefield. Golf courses were originally designed to counter a ground attack, and where the aerial game came into being that left golf courses at a disadvantage.
 The defense of speed in war is tantamount to increasing yardage in golf. The USGA and R&A are the equivalent to an army in defensive position and they are trying to counter the armament race, golf's manufacturers.
 Whichever side has the advantage will win. Currently that is the manufacturers. Disarmament talks are now underway.
 To end this, someone thinks that Baghdad can be defended by a trench.

 I heartedly echo Mike and Kyle on battlefields. I had avidly read and studied Gettysburg and thought I knew what went on. Not so after having been there in 2000. Being on Cemetery Ridge and at the beginning of Pickett's Charge, Little Round Top or the Devil's Den, you become a different person. On any battlefield. I have been to Omaha and Utah beaches, to the Murrah Building, the USS Arizona and it so vastly touching and you become insignificant in comparison to those who have been in battle.
 

TEPaul

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 07:25:43 AM »
"What I'm not sure about is how even with the advances in technology the movement of men across the south was much different than movements across Europe...How was the significance of the Battle of Gettysburg any different than the Battle of the Bulge...Did technology make any difference."

John:

The difference in technology of warfare made a huge difference---a difference that may be almost impossible for us today to concieve of. But comparing the Civil War to WW2 in the movement of military personel and the battles they engaged in probably isn't the best example.

The best example would be anything pre-Civil War compared to anything that came after it. The reason was due to some of the remarkable advances in ordnance that occured right around the Civil War.

Perhaps the most significant was the advance from the smooth bore rifle to the grooved bore rifle. That alone made ordnance so much more accurate (and deadly) that warfare engagement needed to change dramatically to one of frontal and offensive manpower assault to one that was primarily defensive.

The history of warfare is one that's pretty much contingent on the technological advancement in ordnance.

1. Huge advancement in accuracy of ordnance around the middle of the 19th century.

2. Huge advancement of the distance capability of ordnance around WW2----best example the Krupp German mega-cannon Big Bertha (ironic that Callaway Golf borrowed this name) that had a capability of accuracy as well as a distance capability measured in miles.

3. Mega advancement in power---eg best example the development of the atom bomb at the end of WW2 that had the potential to take out whole armies or cities at the push of a button.

Add to that the huge advancement in ordnance delivery systems---eg the airplane and airborne, seaborne and landborne missile systems.

Put some nucleur ordnance (rather than convention ordnance) on the tips of those things (something the World has yet to do en masse) and you have a whole new dimension and equation.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 07:33:19 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 07:38:13 AM »
Max Behr in some of this golf architectural articles actually touched on some of the fundamental similarities between warfare and golf in the sense he drew an analogy between the inherent result or goal fundamental of golf being in the currency of "strokes" and the inherent result or goal fundamental of warfare being in the currency of human lives and a military's ability to destroy its enemey's "assets".

But perhaps the most interesting military analogy to draw between golf and warfare is to utilize the game of chess---a game that actually has always had a very strong military connection, as well one that's been so often used in golf and golf architecture.

And John, one of the inherent oddites of the eons old game of chess is why the King is so ineffectual and so inherently defenseless and the Queen is so inhererently effectual and all powerful.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2006, 07:43:58 AM by TEPaul »

Steve Okula

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 12:56:36 PM »
I suggest that military strategy has fundamentally changed since 1914, with the introduction of aircraft and armor, that made trench warfare obsolete.

Some people fight the last war, as the French and English did in 1940, and the Russians in 1941. The Germans, however, were fighting a new war with  blitzkrieg tactics combining armor, aircraft, and troops in a strategy of movement. the French and English tried to defend with static lines, such as the Maginot, and were consequently out-flanked and routed. The Americans and English took the lesson and turned the tables on the Germans later on.

Since the 1960's, we have been witness to an evolving asymmetrical strategy, which is another paradigm shift. In this approach, small, lightly armed, and mobile units do not challenge large, conventional forces for the permanent occupation of territory, nor do they seek their annihilation. Like the North Vietnamese, and now the Taliban and Iraqi militants, the objective is to gain victory thriough a thousand pin-pricks, sapping the will, morale, and resources of the more powerful opponent.

How this relates to golf course architecture I have no idea, except that it is singularly difficult to build a golf course in a war zone.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Anthony Butler

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Technological strategy in war... The Civil vs WWII
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2006, 10:41:45 AM »

Like the North Vietnamese, and now the Taliban and Iraqi militants, the objective is to gain victory thriough a thousand pin-pricks, sapping the will, morale, and resources of the more powerful opponent.

How this relates to golf course architecture I have no idea, except that it is singularly difficult to build a golf course in a war zone.

Maybe the folks in Afghanistan and Iraq have taken a leaf out of the 'Good Doctor's' book, who claimed his philosphy of making unnatural hazards look natural was an outgrowth of the Boers' ability to blend in with the landscape. Surely part of the insurgencies' success in these two spots is their ability to merge with the rest of the population until it's time for action, making the idea of pre-emptive strikes problematic.

BTW-I reckon Tom Doak could do a hell of a job with Kabul National. Surely his dealings with Keiser, Nicklaus and Pascucci would make the Taliban's meddling child's play...
Next!