[paul cowley]

I think we should limit the amount of clubs in the bag to no more than nine [or less ]....all for for the sake [not the rice wine] of the game.......and for creating and feeling shots once again.....or maybe just to get a sense of the bra burning freedom our sisters felt   [I have to admit that at the time I was a most sympathetic listener as I felt strongly for them].

...and...It wouldn't change golf course design in the least.

Dailing in the numbers to play the game makes me want to throw up.......on Bushnells and GPS systems and all that takes away from the feel and mystery from shot execution that has been lost from the game.

Much admired designers of old utilised and even exploited the lack of statistical knowledge of players of their time.

Maybe we could put feel back in shotmaking by using fewer clubs.

Maybe ANY existing club could then begin to appreciate the sense of the game that most seem to relegate only to playing links courses or fast and firm conditions that are usually found anywheres but in their locality.

I think I might need another sake.
 

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Did you play without yardages at Ballyneal, or did you ask for them?

I like the idea of nine clubs.  It would be hard for guys to carry four wedges under those circumstances.

[Adam Clayman]

I like the idea of doing whatever you want to do, within the rules. However, I do not think dictating to others, by changing the rule, is the way to go. Especially if there's a definite lawsuit involved as a result of the dictation.

[paul cowley]

Tom ...we did not play with cards or yardages off tees [didn't even look for them]....probably because we were playing from whatever back place we could find...and enjoying it.
After playing the course, I was going to start a thread on stealing ideas in design [as I plan on stealing your tee ideas from Ballyneal when I can find the right situation...modified to the site of course] .
We didn't play the course in order and I think I only had five clubs.

 Good fun, Great course.
....personally I think a person has to re invent their self every fifteen years or so and try something different, just to stay relevent, least they begin to 'gel'......just curious, but how long have you been in the business?                                                          

[paul cowley]

Adam....my head knows you are right but my heart is buried in Ogallallah [sp?].

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

It's been 25 years since I worked that first summer at Long Cove, and 19 years since I started shaping at High Pointe.  Maybe I've already reinvented myself once or twice in the interim, though.

[paul cowley]

Tom ....I guess the numbers seem right....maybe you ought to stick it out with what your're doing a few more years anyway.

[cary lichtenstein]

Driver
7 wood
4 iron
6 iron
8 iron
Wedge
Sand Wedge
Putter

What's the 9th club, a lob wedge or 4 wood?

[paul cowley]

Cary.....we connect!
I would head bump you if we were in the same room .

...and eights cool...not a problem.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I like the idea of doing whatever you want to do, within the rules. However, I do not think dictating to others, by changing the rule, is the way to go. Especially if there's a definite lawsuit involved as a result of the dictation.

Adam,
It's a hard job making the rules of a game when we're constantly worried about lawsuits. And anyway, if it ever happened, which it won't (who could possibly need a cart to carry 9 clubs?) Those guys would find a way to sell us new multipurpose clubs 'It's a driving hybrid AND a chipper'...
Which isn't to say it's not a great idea. The most fun I've had the last two years has been thanks to my discovery of the pencil bag. Light is good, and a  choke down punch 5 iron isn't  awfully hard to execute.

[paul cowley]

Paul.....you're tilting windmills.

[paul cowley]

Paul.....you're tilting windmills.

I can understand his point, or his 'feelings' in any case.
Watching a windmill is one thing....tilting is quite another.

...but weren't we talking about golf and the limitations of equipment?

[Adam Clayman]

Lloyd, Then it would be the cart manufactuers who litigate.
Modifying the rules of golf to fit "our" version of how it should be played, is not really a good thing. Even if we do know better.

Paul,
It is spelled Ogallala. Derived from the Native American Sioux tribe, Oglala.

It's a pretty famous town, as western towns go. All the trails that headed west came through here. The Texas trail ended here. (cattle drives) And RJ Daley and his band of Green Bayers is staying here tonight. Earlier today we braved the Gothenburg tribe in what could only be described as wicked. Winds howling up to 40 mph. Some sleet and rain thrown in for good measure. It was truely my element, as I shot a 41 on the back, with a double on the par 5 14th. The short 15th was as tough as one could ever imagine.

[Tim Bert]

Driver
16 degree hybrid
22 degree hybrid
7 iron
9 iron
52 degree wedge
56 degree wedge
60 degree wedge
putter

I could drop one of the hybrids and go with a 4th wedge if needed.

[paul cowley]

Adam...wish I was there.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

If, somehow, golf could force something like nine clubs back into the game I would have to think one of the results would almost have to be to force the ground game back into existence and prevalent functionality, both in architecture and maintenance practices.

Back in the day a lot of those old "shot-makers" didn't just use the ground because they thought it was cool---in some cases they had to do it that way.

There is no question at all, in my mind, that forcing the ground game back into existence would generally "reconnect" far more golfers with golf architecture itself, because it would connect them and their concentration with the ground itself instead of just primarily the air.

In some ways it wouldn't be much different from that old racing analogy of feeling the limit of adhesion of the tires of the race car on the road in the seat of the driver's pants.  

[rboyce]

Driver
3 Wood
3 Hybrid
5 Iron
7 Iron
9 Iron
Pitching Wedge
Sand Wedge
Putter

No problem, my score would still be 85. Take the driver away and it would move towards 83. ha

[paul cowley]

TomP....come to think of it the increased number of clubs a player could use probably encouraged the aerial game more than any other factor [except maybe irrigation and the maintenance advancements because of it's use].

In the earliest times it didn't matter how many clubs you had in your bag because most of the time you didn't even have a bag....you just carried your 4 or 5 clubs under your arm.
...and there was a sizable distance gap between clubs, probably 40 or so yards, and a whole lot of bouncing going on.

Fast forward to modern times and because of the amount of  clubs we carry, we have narrowed the distance gap between clubs to 10 or 15 yards for most.....along with a whole new approach with up to 4 wedges.

Today's game is all about trying to position yourself to hit full shots.....probably because with the number of clubs we carry we can do just that....no need for any club to do double or triple duty....no need to invent or feel shots as in older times, like the days before Nicklaus or Faldo.

[cary lichtenstein]

I was in the rough today and impossible to hit my normal draw with a tree in the way and a bush half behind me. I could go up because of the branches, so it hit a punch cut 4 wood to about 25 feet left of the green and got up and down.


It was soo much fun

[paul cowley]

Cary...in the past, when I had enough time to play this game, my best shots, ones that Seve would find simpatico, were recovery shots.........maybe its because I have a good imagination, and the situation makes me focus more...but I think its really more about the challenge of conceiving an option and then executing [while extricating] myself.
And its similar to the kind of golf play that I find missing from the game and the reason I probably started this thread.
That and a little swing oil

....but back to you...I agree, its really sweet when you pull it off as planned, probably much more memorable than a score.

[David Stamm]

Rather than limit clubs, I would give the answer that I would give towards the lengthening of courses. Simplify everything...........................................Roll Back the ball!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I don't know that 9 is the right number, or if there is a right number, but, when one reviews how the 14 club limit came into being, I think you could make an argument for a reduction in the limit.

I doubt it would be as drastic as 14 to 9, but 14 to 12 would seem within the realm of possibility.

The real question is:

What's the USGA's position on the 14 club limit and any reduction to that limit ?

[harley_kruse]

Paul

I am a big fan of reducing the number of clubs in the bag and down to 9 clubs is a good start.

I am a big fan  for the following reasons:

1) More creative shot making.  
2) Reduced weight in the bag making it easier to carry and encourage more people to play the game as its meant to be - by walking.
3) Reduce the total cost of implements and encourage more people to get into the game. This might help in a small way for countries where the game is growing eg China.

I often play with a half set ( ie odd numbered irons one week and even numbers the next plus often just have a 3 wood and no driver) As I like to carry the reduced weight helps my back.

I would love to see this rule brought in for the pro's but the too powerful club manufacturers I'm sure would cry poor.

[Brian_Sleeman]

This somewhat reminds me of a thread of mine about one-club rounds earlier this summer.  Taken to that extreme, I'll be setting up a one-club tournament at my club this fall on its old Langford/Gill course.  

A surprising number of members have expressed interest in the idea, and I think it'd not only add more fun to the game (if only for a short experimental while), but it would also bring back the importance of strategy and choosing the best angles into greens and around hazards.  Short-side yourself with a green sloping away from you and only a 6-iron in your hand and let the fun begin.  Many of my most memorable and fun shots from this past season have been played with my 6-iron in one-club rounds, ranging from 240-yard rope hooks to 90-yard moonballs.  It's an absolute joy to walk off the first tee with one club in hand and maybe an extra ball in the pocket.

Any reduction from 14 sounds good to me for regular play, but reasonably I think most could do very well with just a handful:

Driver
4 Iron
7 Iron
Wedge
Putter

[harley_kruse]

Cary

I like your list of 8 clubs

"Driver
7 wood
4 iron
6 iron
8 iron
Wedge
Sand Wedge
Putter"

I often play with excaly those except for me i have a trusty ol 4 wood instead of the 7.

Perhaps just 8 clubs would do?

I know 5 times British Open winner Peter Thomson would often play a quick 18 holes or social games with a "half set" . He would have a tiny little canvas bay thrown over his shoulder whilst his social playing partners would be lugging around a full set.  Peter had the ability to turn a 5 iron into a 4 or 6 just be angling the face differently at set up.  I'd love to see modern pros be forced into such creative shot making.

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