News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Aaron Katz

Augusta's 11th
« on: September 21, 2006, 02:41:29 PM »
I had long considered Augusta's 11th to be a very fine two shotter and a good example of the important of playing angles.  The length of the modern player blunted the hole's demands somewhat because it was easy to bomb it down the right side with abandon, which made the water a far less significant hazard and also completely took the Larry Mize chipping area to the right out of play.  I think that with the tee moved back and to the right, as well as with extra trees to the right, the hole's risk/reward element off the tee is returned, at least so long at driving it down the right side is still feasible at all.

But still, I get the feeling that the green's design could be much stronger.  I certainly don't think that wild undulations would be appropriate.  The long, general slope towards the hazard is sufficient.  But what if the green was built up just a bit higher and made into a Redan-type complex?  This might require softening some of the undulations short of the green, which tend to kick the ball into the water as opposed to assisting a draw bounce toward the hole.  But I'd love to see pin-high right come more into play, and the bunker long right just doesn't present a tricky enough play these days.  

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 02:42:25 PM by Aaron Katz »
Logged

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Augusta's 11th
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2006, 04:53:07 PM »
Aaron,
   I don't see why you perceive a need to change the green at #11. That hole kicks most golfer's butts every year and anything more challenging than what is already there would probably be overkill IMO.
   Now just wait 5 more years and it will be an awesome risk reward driveable par 4. :)
Logged
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Augusta's 11th
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 05:23:18 PM »
2006 Masters Stats:

#11 ranked as hardest hole with 4.47 scoring average over all four days.  Along with 86 bogeys and 19 doubles it allowed 4 "others" (only #12 had more, at 5).  

On Sunday, when it matters most, it ranked second hardest.  
Logged

Aaron Katz

Re:Augusta's 11th
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 06:08:07 PM »
It's definitely hard as hell, no doubt.  What I'd like to see those is the green accept a slightly different shot than it currently does.  The mounding short right seems to either kick balls away into the Larry Mize area or into the pond.  I can't remember seeing someone hit a bouncing shot at the right hand side of the green that funnelled accurately toward the hole.  On the other hand, a shot pin high right either catches the right hand side of the green or goes into the greenside bunker.  I suppose I'd like to see the pin high right area present a more different type of challenge (like a chipping area that is a couple feet below the green surface), with the landing area short of the green presenting a more accepting of the ground game.  

I don't think these changes would necessarily make the hole harder, and it might even make it easier.  It would just present a slightly different challenge and might encourage a running shot more than it currently does.  I think right now the 11th presents too big an advantage for high ball hitters.
Logged

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Augusta's 11th
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 07:37:03 PM »
Quote from: Aaron Katz on September 21, 2006, 02:41:29 PM

I had long considered Augusta's 11th to be a very fine two shotter and a good example of the important of playing angles.  The length of the modern player blunted the hole's demands somewhat because it was easy to bomb it down the right side with abandon, which made the water a far less significant hazard and also completely took the Larry Mize chipping area to the right out of play.  I think that with the tee moved back and to the right, as well as with extra trees to the right, the hole's risk/reward element off the tee is returned, at least so long at driving it down the right side is still feasible at all.

Upon what personal experience do you draw these conclusions ?

Or, are they made from watching TV ?

But still, I get the feeling that the green's design could be much stronger.  

First, don't give up your day job.

Second, how many times have you played the hole ?

Third, what makes you get that feeling that the green's design could be MUCH stronger ?

I certainly don't think that wild undulations would be appropriate.  The long, general slope towards the hazard is sufficient.  

But what if the green was built up just a bit higher and made into a Redan-type complex?  

Are you out of your mind ?
A redan-type green complex flanked by water left and to the rear of the green ?


This might require softening some of the undulations short of the green, which tend to kick the ball into the water as opposed to assisting a draw bounce toward the hole.  

What undulations short of the green ?

Do you mean the long slope leading to the green ?

But I'd love to see pin-high right come more into play, and the bunker long right just doesn't present a tricky enough play these days.

How many times have you parred or birdied the hole ?  

Thoughts?

Like yours can be dangerous.

Please, stay off all Green Committees and Boards
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 11:44:35 AM by Patrick_Mucci »
Logged

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Augusta's 11th
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 09:33:12 PM »
Aaron:

Making the 11th green into a Redan would defeat the purpose of the water hazard on the left.  A moderate bail-out to the right would be brought back into the green ... and a severe bail-out to the right would make for an impossible third shot where anything but a great shot would go into the water.  Do you really think it would be a better hole then?

I think the green has all the tilt it needs.  The more you bail out, the more you fear chipping into the water and the more you're likely to leave the chip well short and make 5.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up