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Aaron Katz

"New" Major Championship Courses
« on: September 19, 2006, 11:41:15 AM »
For many years I had hoped that the USGA and R & A would not take their tournaments to newer courses, thinking that the majors -- both professional and amateur versions -- were best left to classic Ross, Tillie, MacKenzie, Raynour, Flynn, etc. courses.  I even disliked when the Open went back to Hazeltine in 1991.  

But this influx of well designed new courses makes me think that perhaps my real issue was that the typical "championship" designs that came along in the 1950s through mid 1990s were, for the most part, artificial, bland, and uninspired.  In other words, I have no problem having a major held on a new track that lacks history, so long as it is a grand design.  Now I'm actually pretty excited about seeing more majors played on courses like Whistling Straits, Pac Dunes (I enjoyed seeing the Curtis Cup there), Erin Hills (based on some reviews), etc.  

How would you feel if the USGA took the U.S. Open to Erin Hills in the next 10-12 years; or if the R & A happened to play the Open at Kingsbarns?  The former is more likely than the latter, obviously.

Mark_Rowlinson

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 12:05:01 PM »
Obviously in the UK there are very few new links courses and the only two I can think of, Kingsbarns and Dundonald (I've not seen it, I presume it is a links?), are right next door to existing Open venues.  I suppose the only candidate (very unlikely, of course) would be if some Trump or other dug up Harlech and built a new course stretching into the dunes.  They'd need to build a hotel, of course, and put in an airfield, rebuild that bit of the coast road to dual-carriageway standard....  Please, no!  I like it as it is.

Phil McDade

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2006, 12:13:05 PM »
Good question. What I think the USGA, and some related organizations, deserve credit for these days is their willingness to take major tourneys to both new sites of some architectural merit (Pacific Dunes being a primary example) or older courses where length wasn't a huge issue in terms of the field (Prairie Dunes for both women's open and senior men's open, Salem a few years back for the senior men, Newport this year for the women, Chicago for the Walker Cup). I think it's been good, generally, for golf and golf architecture to have these courses televised, and allow folks to appreciate the work of Ross, Maxwell, McDonald et. al.

I still am biased toward hosting the US men's open (and women's, for that matter) on a traditional course -- and looking back, the USGA held the men's open only three times on courses that were widely/somewhat criticized: Bellerive in '65, Champions in '69, and Hazeltine in '70 (Hazeltine was absolutely villified by not just Hill at the time, but a great number of folks). The USGA I think deserves more credit than it generally gets for its willingness to hold the Open at older places like Pebble ('72), Shinnecock ('86), Pinehurst ('99) and Bethpage ('02) that a) were unproven as US Open courses and b) proved to be great successes.

I do like the idea of Kingsbarns hosting the Open. Birkdale and Turnberry were relatively new courses (by British standards) when they first hosted the Open.

David Stamm

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2006, 12:19:33 PM »
I still think, in the USGA's case, that they'll take these new courses and set "The Open Doctor" loose on them and ruin the new classics just like they've ruined the alot of the older ones.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Dan Kelly

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2006, 12:26:38 PM »
... Hazeltine in '70 (Hazeltine was absolutely villified by not just Hill at the time, but a great number of folks).

I, for one, liked Hazeltine better in those days.

Bunch of crybaby touring pros, if you ask me.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David_Tepper

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2006, 12:38:30 PM »
Mark Rowlinson -

Since you mentioned Trump, check out www.trumpgolfscotland.com

He plans to build a big-time golf course & destination resort on the coastline between Aberdeen & Cruden Bay.

Assuming he gets it built in the next 6-8 years, I could see him paying up to host the Ryder Cup at some point down the road.

DT

Ally Mcintosh

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2006, 12:42:44 PM »
talking of "new" courses holding the open got me thinking that there has been relatively few new links courses in developed in the uk in the past 25 years... however, in ireland, there has been so many great links courses built recently, quite a few of them by eddie hackett but also some (like the european, ballyliffin and rosappena) by pat ruddy and tom craddock...

...coincidentally, with mention of trump above, he has bought a site just nort of murcar near aberdeen where he plans to build a huge hotel, two links resort... has that been mentioned before on here?... i dread to think what a heavy handed job he may make... anyone hear who the architect is supposed to be?

Ally Mcintosh

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2006, 12:43:28 PM »
ah, looks like david got there first...

David_Tepper

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2006, 12:48:51 PM »
Aaron -

For better or worse, the PGA Championship has certainly been more inclined to look to newer/modern courses (Shoal Creek, Valhalla, Whistling Straits) as venues for that event.

The USGA has also used modern courses such as Pumpkin Ridge and Pacific Dunes for their events other than the Men's Open. But the reality is the logistics of hosting the Men's Open does limit the number of courses available to host that event.

The USGA has already committed to having a Championship (the Publinx, I think) at Erin Hills within the next couple of years. If
all goes well, who knows what might happen there.

DT    

Jeff_Brauer

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2006, 12:49:40 PM »
The R and A had the nerve to take Prestwick out of the rotation, so I think they would be willing to add KB at some point. ;)

In the US, the PGA has had the most inclination to go to new venues, but Torry Pines qualifies the USGA as going that direction as well.  (not new, but newly remodeled and not a GA course)

I recall Larry Nelson at his press conference at the Oak Tree PGA in '89 (he was defending champ) said that Oak Tree and a handful like it will be the classic courses 20 years down the line.   I think that's true, if for no other reason we are probably stuck on the idea of our "Top 100" courses.  As a new great course goes on, something else will have to come off, and go down in our collective estimation.
   
I believe we will gradually see more new courses in all  major rotations, except of course, the Masters (and some would call that a new course......)

All things are possible.....anything can happen, and usually does.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Rowlinson

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2006, 01:15:55 PM »
Thanks for the Trump link, David.  There was something in the back of my mind that he was doing something of this kind, hence my mentioning him.  

The R & A has taken more than Prestwick off the roster (it's hardly a rota).  As well as Old Musselburgh it dumped Prince's, R Cinque Ports, R Portrush, and for many years did not visit Carnoustie, R St George's or R Liverpool.  It introduced Turnberry, but then dropped it for a while.  They've tried the Senior Open at R Portrush and R Co Down, but I don't think either will get the nod, especially with an increased roster now that Hoylake is back.  

Jon Wiggett

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2006, 04:33:41 PM »
Jeff, I think KB would be considered to near to TOC to be taken on to the rota. I was however up at Mark Parsinen's (KB's owner) latest scottish project at Castle Stuart, Inverness at the end of last month. Chris Haspel, the Super showed me around and although the project is in its early stages it looks like it won't disappoint. Chris told me that one of the aims of the project is to hold the Open one day, so who knows maybe it will be Castle Stuart.


Tim Pitner

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2006, 04:47:26 PM »
Jon,

What's the intended market for Castle Stuart--similar to Kingsbarns, i.e., public and very expensive?

Marty Bonnar

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2006, 05:00:14 PM »
Tim,
judging by the (building) architecture. EXPENSIVE!

http://www.g1architects.com/lei_stuarthotel.html

 ;)
FBD.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 05:00:31 PM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tim Pitner

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2006, 05:16:56 PM »
Tim,
judging by the (building) architecture. EXPENSIVE!

http://www.g1architects.com/lei_stuarthotel.html


Hmm . . . not exactly traditional.  

Jon Wiggett

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2006, 05:24:12 PM »
Tim, it is going to be on a par with KB, GFs over £100 with no membership. It includes a second 18 hole course as well as a short par 3 course.

Tim Pitner

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2006, 05:53:52 PM »
Jon,

Thanks.  Is Hanse working on both courses there?

David_Tepper

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2006, 07:20:32 PM »
Jon Wiggett -

Two questions about Castle Stuart:

1) Did you get any idea of when the 1st course at Castle Stuart might be open for play? Any chance it will be open for play in 2007?

2) Will the course be on land near the level of the beach (similar to Nairn) or does it sit on land above the Moray Firth?

DT  

Jon Wiggett

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2006, 07:32:03 PM »
Tim,

at the moment Hanse is only doing the main course. To the best of my knowledge there has been no decision about who will do the second one.

David,

no the course is still in the first stages so it won't open until atleast 2008. As far as I know they will start seeding sometime next spring. Holes 1-3 & 10-12 are right down on the beach with the rest of the course sitting up on a plateau. Like KB you will get great views of the sea from most holes with the land inland form the course being mainly hidden by dunes.

Kevin Pallier

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2006, 07:51:22 PM »
anyone hear who the architect is supposed to be?

Ally - the website says Fazio

What about some courses in N + Ireland ?.....like Mark I'd love to see an Open held at an historic venue like RCD or RP but in terms of "newness" per se could Doonbeg host one ? or say the revamped Waterville ? or The European Club ?

I'd suggest access would be the main hindrance to the above though....

Kingsbarns - would be a solid bet


Jon Wiggett

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2006, 03:16:45 AM »
Kevin,

from what I saw the Castle Stuart site had excellent access and does sit only a few miles from the airport.

Ally Mcintosh

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2006, 04:27:00 AM »
kevin,

portrush and co. down are eligible to hold the open as they are in northern irealnd... courses like doonbeg and the european are not eligible as they are in the republic... at least, i assume the R&A require the course to be in the UK but it wouldn't surprise me if that was just an unwritten rule...

tim,

just want to echo your words on the castle stuart development.... the hotel isn't the most traditional looking, is it?... still, not as bad as the monstrosity that trump is planning in aberdeen... seven stories high! why??!

Eric Franzen

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2006, 04:50:54 AM »
Tim,
judging by the (building) architecture. EXPENSIVE!

http://www.g1architects.com/lei_stuarthotel.html

 ;)
FBD.

Are you sure that this is not a mix-up with some blueprints for a planned expanision on the airport (glass, glass, steel, steel...) in Prestwick?

Doug Ralston

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2006, 07:39:45 AM »
Longaberger! Shouldn't US Open or PGA be at Longaberger?  ::)

Doug

Jon Wiggett

Re:"New" Major Championship Courses
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2006, 10:11:27 AM »
Ally,

not sure the Open (not British Open) is restricted by national boarders. I think it is more important that it is held on a classic links. Still I doubt it will move outside the UK.

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