[Richard_Mandell]

Anyone want to share their interpretation of the prototypical Donald Ross starting holes?

[Tom_Doak]

Richard:

It's a par four, and it's not too penal off the tee.

Those are the only generalizations I would care to make.  I'm sure he started with a par five a few times out of 400, I just can't think of any right away.  I've seen par fours from very short to very long -- the first at Oak Hill (East) and the first at Franklin Hills are two of the tougher Ross opening holes that come to mind.

[Jason Topp]

I don't know how prototypical they are and I am fully aware of the design histories or whether the order of the holes has changed, but of the courses I have played:

Interlachen - par five
Minneapolis - short par five, open with significant back to front slope on green
Northland - par four about 400 yards downhill, pretty open
Minikahda - 310 yard par four, pretty tight
Wachussett (Sp) - 380 yards (or so) par four - pretty open

Mainly gentle handshake type holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Pine Needles, a gentle uphilll par 5.  Mid Pines, a relatively gentle uphill par 4.  Broadmoor, a more difficult par 4 but very straightforward.  Pinehurst #2, relatively gentle par 4.  Pinehurst #1, very gentle par 4.  Athens CC, tough par 4 uphill but wide open tee shot.

Theme: not too demanding, wide open tee shot, mostly par 4s.

[Tyler Kearns]

All three Ross courses in Manitoba (Elmhurst, Pine Ridge & St. Charles South) start as gentle par-4's that are quite to relatively short (325-370 yds.). The tee shots are not very challenging, but each has a strongly contoured (back-to-front) green to ensure you can't score a careless par.

TK

[Pete Stankevich]

Most of my Ross experience is in the Northeast, and they all pretty much fit Tom Doak's description.
Wampanoag:  400ish, straight, wide open par 4
Longmeadow:  400ish, pretty straightforward par 4
Misquamicut:  same, just hillier and shorter par 4
Waterbury:  400ish, downhill, slight dogleg right, not too tough
Hartford:  400ish, slight dogleg right par 4
The Orchards:  400ish, straight, slightly downhill, small brook
Wannamoisett:  400-plus, but pretty straightforward par 4
Springfield:  Short, pretty straight par 4

I've played George Wright Muni, Ludlow, Ponkapoag in Massachusetts, and Lake Sunapee in New Hampshire too, but I can't recall their opening holes.  My best guess is that most, if not all of those fit the same mold too.

[Phil McDade]

Michael J. Fay's book on Ross, "Golf, As It Was Meant to be Played," refers to Aronimink's opening hole as "a stern handshake," and it sure looks it from the pictures and descriptions. 420 yards, elevated tee through a valley with an uphill second into a green bunkered left and right front. Forests left and right from tee to green.

[T_MacWood]

A moderate par-4, 380 to 400...often from an elevated tee or slightly elevated.

Jason
I believe Interlachen and Minikahda were originally designed by William Watson and Minniapolis by Bendelow. Whats the story with Wachussett...is it a pretty good course?

Didn't Pine Needles change its routing at some point?

[Richard_Mandell]

Tom MacWood:

Pine Needles did change their routing when the Bells built the lodge in the fifties.  The old clubhouse was a neat little house just west of the big hotel (it sitll exists) and today's eighteenth was number one.  Today's first hole was actually the original nbumber two hole.

Tom M. and Tom D,:

I agree with your assessments, but can you give me one or two specifics that you think best fit those descriptions?

Thanks

[TEPaul]

Ross started with a par 5 at my course, GMGC but it's now a par 4. At least I guess he realized he did since originally due to an old historic house next to the second tee, the second was initially the first and the first was the 18th but Ross knew where the clubhouse was going to go since he sited it, even if it wasn't built for a few years.

[Brad Klein]

Pine Needles current par-5 1st was not the original routing.

Generally, as Doak and others have stated, a modest par-4 for starters, and even where it's long (Franklin Hills, Aronimink, Waterbury, Oak Hill) it was downhill.

There are some exceptions, a few of them noted, as Interlachen. Other par-5 openers are Whittingsville (MA) and Wilmington Muni (as I recall, a par-5) and Raleigh CC. Mt. Washington GC in NH starts with a downhill par-3.

[Richard_Mandell]

Brad:

The original first (as it was being built) was today's current 18th.  Check out these quotes from the local papers in 1927:

Bion Butler description of Pine Needles close to completion of construction (Sandhill Citizen, 3/11/27):

“Starting out from the hotel #1 fairway leads down along an interesting slope into the lowlands of the stream.  #2 comes back a neighboring slope to a point not far from the hotel.  It is an interesting, but not strenuous drive.  Swinging around the tennis courts, #3 drops deeper into the valley, and after crossing the broad central drive, prepares for the troublesome little #4 which is besieged by some difficulties, and will be talked about before it is as old as the hills above it. #5 skirts the edge of a pond, and is no mean proposition, 6 and 7 offer some debate to the player who is looking for a reasonably stiff game. #8 is a long swing, with plainer sailing, and nine ends near the hotel, where the player who wants a short run can check out. #10 starts off close by the Inn and follows around through a rather intricate field until the final hole is reached, again near the Inn, and all the way around from #1 to the nineteenth hole the course is a succession of alluring out-door pictures, that make the journey worth while even though the walker carry no club and play no game.” (This description is when current #18 was #1 and clubhouse was old hotel)

#4 - 150 yards over a small pond.  The swampy bottom land skirting the stream has been drained, 2,000 feet of tile being used for this purpose.  (Outlook, 2/15/27)

[T_MacWood]

Richard
The hole that most are familar with is the first at Pinehurst #2, I think it is as good as example as any. Oyster Harbors is another. Scioto if your imagination can remove the Wilson bunkers and replace them with the originals.

These three examples: Slightly elevated tee, generous fairway, single fairway bunker (about 180 yards off the tee) and moderately well bunkered green, mostly open in front, but often oriented to one side of the fairway.

[Lawrence Largent]

Holston Hills 1st is 440 slight dogleg ro the right with a sloping two teired green. The fairway is protected by large hardwoods with a fairway bunker to the left protecting the dogleg somewhat. This is by the toughest opening hole for a ross course. The 1st at Plainfield while it be a long hole with a very sloping green is pretty tough also.


Lawrence

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, most of Ross's first holes were sort of like his general architectural theme with tee shots which was just get the ball in play off the tee (which is never very hard on his courses) and then the strategies reveal themselves. This is why I think some call him the best "second shot" architect in golf---eg his tee shot presentations can sort of lull you into a false sense of security regarding what comes next.

[Richard_Mandell]

Thanks for the input from everyone.  The reason for my post is to fill in a one paragraph hole for part of my book and it was easier (smarter?, lazier?) to post my question here than to think too hard about it last night.

[Brad Klein]

Richard, shame on you for being lazy. You should just fork over the $$$ for my Ross bio and copy pages 251-253 and spare yourself the agony of this group.

[michael j fay]

They jump all over the lot.

Hartford GC has a 450 opener that is very difficult, the original opener at Pine Needles is a pretty tough downhill left to right affair, Holstons opener is all you can handle.

Most are of the gentle handshake variety. Portland CC, Brae Burn, RI CC, Myers Park, Charlotte CC, Cape Fear CC, Wampanoag CC and many others start with a benign par four that are no more than 370.

Suffce to say that Mr. Ross expressed that a gentle handshake was preferable but if the land dictated the handshake became more severe.

[Dan Boerger]

TEPaul - That's a very interesting story about the Gulph Mills layout. I've always though that a real stout group of starting holes.

I played Aronimink yesterday and that course is playing long and difficult. The opening hole challenge is compounded by the tiered greeen (back pin yesterday).

[Glenn Spencer]

Most of my Ross experience is in the Northeast, and they all pretty much fit Tom Doak's description.
Wampanoag:  400ish, straight, wide open par 4
Longmeadow:  400ish, pretty straightforward par 4
Misquamicut:  same, just hillier and shorter par 4
Waterbury:  400ish, downhill, slight dogleg right, not too tough
Hartford:  400ish, slight dogleg right par 4
The Orchards:  400ish, straight, slightly downhill, small brook
Wannamoisett:  400-plus, but pretty straightforward par 4
Springfield:  Short, pretty straight par 4

I've played George Wright Muni, Ludlow, Ponkapoag in Massachusetts, and Lake Sunapee in New Hampshire too, but I can't recall their opening holes.  My best guess is that most, if not all of those fit the same mold too.

Springfield does not in any way fit Doak's description. It is a blind and very demanding tee-shot. How does that fit? It is like no other Ross I have seen for openers.

[Ed_Baker]

#1 at Charles River is the third stroke hole, 411 yds on the card plays 20 yards longer as the second shot is uphill, water at 240 yds. off the tee on the right, bunker on left at 250, large severely undulating green with many nasty pin placements well bunkered left and right.

[michael j fay]

Blind water from the tee. Rather unusual for Ross.

[Bill Weber]

Longmeadow started out as a par 5 but was shortened to allow the putting green to be built behind the tee.

[Jason Topp]

A moderate par-4, 380 to 400...often from an elevated tee or slightly elevated.

Jason
I believe Interlachen and Minikahda were originally designed by William Watson and Minniapolis by Bendelow. Whats the story with Wachussett...is it a pretty good course?

Tom - I think you are correct, hence my caveat.  I'm not precisely sure of how the designs occurred.

Wachussett is a decent course and definitely a great option if someone wants to experience the traditional Donald Ross holes on a course available to the public that is in good condition at a reasonable price.  I played it because at the time I had never played a Ross course and wanted to see what one is like.  

[Glen Rapoport]

Mike Fay,

do you think that the current opener at Hartford was intended to be the opening hole when the clubhouse was on the other side Albany Avenue.

Also, don't you think the tee was originally more to the left, down near the current driving range, which straightens the hole out and makes it not as daunting an opening drive?

Glen

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