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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« on: August 28, 2006, 11:55:48 AM »
On a day in the past few weeks, I played the Old Course and New Course in quick succession.  The Old Course was obviously a transporting experience, but after the day was over I came away really impressed by the New Course and wondered why it is not discussed or praised more often.  It can't match the subtlety and mystery of the greensites of the Old, but Old Tom's greensites on the New can stand on their own and be proud. A common feature used brilliantly throughout is a little No doubt it suffers because of its proximity to the course just east of it, but lets have a real discussion about the merits of it.

A couple of highlights for me:

#5 - Par 3, 170 yards


A wonderful green, the back half of which is separated by a neat little chasm.



#8 - Par 5, 480 yards


A very neat little par 5, which requires real decision making on each shot. A necklace of 3 fairway bunkers can catch a well struck tee ball, depending on the direction of the breeze.


The approach needs to thread two large sandhills, a bunker benched in each - a striking visual.



The green is generally bunkerless beyond the hills, but the sandhills sitting prominently in front of the green obscure the green's surface and fool with depth perception.

From behind left, you can make out the contoured area of the green that will catch (or repel) most of the approaches.


and viewed from the 9th Tee looking back


#11 - Par 4, 330 yds.

A neat little short par 4. The green end is the real treat - a natural green complex tucked in neatly to the dune.

From the tee:


The approach:


From the dune behind the green



#15 - Par 4, 380 yards


Another great medium sub-400 yard par 4 that challenges at the greenend. These pics don't capture the complexity of the front of the green, which is guarded by a tiny hill and a false front that tend to repel shots down the left into a little hollow, from where recovery is pretty difficult. The safe play is obviously to play long as it is shared green with #3.

The approach


Greenfront



Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 11:57:46 AM »
I too like the New. it suffers from its neighbor. TOC has more drama in every way from undulations in the greens to bolder bigger bunkers.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 12:19:14 PM »
Tiger - Just so we're clear, I'm not saying that the New Course is superior. I'm only saying that it is unfairly passed over for examination because of its neighborhood. It has better land than TOC. Were it somewhere else, it would be talked about more, IMO.

ForkaB

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 12:23:53 PM »
Great pics, Sean, of a great course which I agree is underrated and too often overlooked.

An interesting thing I learned recently (thanks to Sean Tully) is that significant changes were made to the course not long after it was opened (not sure of the date, but it was still during Tom Morris' reign).  One of the changes was to CREATE that lovely little gap between the dunes on the apporach to the 8th.  As originally designed and played the appproach to the green was completely blind.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 12:35:08 PM »
Let's not get carried away. The New is a good relief course. It struggles to overcome the mediocrity of the first and second holes. Both appallingly dull holes. There are also some forgettable par 4's in the middle of the back nine. But the New also has some good holes pictured above.

If given 10 rounds to allocate between TOC and the New, I fill out my card with all 10 at TOC.

Bob

 

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 12:39:10 PM »
According to a book about the St Andrews archives, Harry Colt redesigned 6 greens plus bunker work.  But the details aren't given,  probably documented somewhere in in the R&A.  He wanted to take in the Himalaya's/Ladies putting green into the New course's 18th.  No doubt an unpopular suggestion.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 12:50:58 PM »
Rich - Do you mean that the sandhill used to extend the entire front of the green and the gap was cut out of it?

Bob - I disagree with a couple of your points. I don't think it is a "relief" from the Old Course. On the contrary, I believe it is a tougher course (and, if I'm not mistaken, I think the SSS bears that out). I'm not saying its rock solid throughout, but neither is the Old Course. No hole on the New is as dull as 9 on the Old, which may be the dullest hole on the property.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 12:57:44 PM »
I understand you do not feel it is superior, nor do I. It does merit discussion and the 8th is a wonderful hole. Olympic Ocean had that feature on its recent renovation. I hear it may have just been taken out though. I would play there 2 out of ten, which is about how it has fallen thus far. I would play the Jubalie 1 out of 10. I hear the Eden is a must play but I have not been able to tear myself from TOC often enough to do that as yet.

ForkaB

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 01:04:52 PM »
Rich - Do you mean that the sandhill used to extend the entire front of the green and the gap was cut out of it?


Yup.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 01:25:58 PM »
i played the old, the new and the eden again recently for the first time in years... i enjoyed my round on the new most even though i played better on the old.... 3,4,5,6,8 and 9 are all great holes... it's a tough course, tighter than the old and with a great use of cross bunkering on a couple of holes, the eighth being one as mentioned above... also, the gorse frames the fairways a little bit more than the old...

given the opportunity, i'd play the new course 4 times out of 10

the eden is a lovely wee course, too...

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 02:28:12 PM »
Thanks for the Pics, I too have wondered if proximity to it's famous neighbour is the reason why it's never featured on here.

Have their been any famous competitions played on the new?

Also I hope to make the trip for a weekend in the next 12 months and wonder if The New is playable on a Sunday?  Do they have mats in the winter. More info please.
Let's make GCA grate again!

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 02:46:50 PM »
Tony - It's definitely open on Sun. Can't answer the winter mats question.

ForkaB

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 02:50:51 PM »
Tony

The New is playable on Sundays, but its a hard tee time to get since the Old is hors de combat.  No mats in the winter, either--at least the last time I played it then (7-8 years ago).

No important pro events that I know of have been played there, but annual amateur tournaments such as the Links Trophy and Eden Trophy are played over it.  When built in 1895 it was meant to be significantly harder than the Old course, and even up to the 1930's, there were thoughts of using much of it's land for a "Super" Course that would be used for Open championships.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 02:56:04 PM »
Question about #5 -- the first green pictured: Are you allowed to hit a wedge from the front half of the green to the back half over that chasm -- or wouldn't that be a practical play?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 02:56:27 PM »
Sean -

I liked the New Course too and especially #5 as I chipped in for eagle from the back right of the green. I thought I lost my ball, but found it, hacked out, and the SOB rolled in the hole. Luckiest shot I ever hit  ;).

Jim
Mr Hurricane

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 04:33:35 PM »
Bump -- does anyone know the answer to the question I posed? I'd be interested to find out if using a wedge on a venerable Scottish green is considered kosher. Looks to me like that shot would be necessary from time to time.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 04:47:55 PM »
Rick,

Why would it be needed?  Just putt...

Bob Crosby,

U been smokin'?

TOC is not that far ahead of the New...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2006, 04:49:37 PM »
Rick -

You are certainly allowed as long as you remove the flagstick, but I don't think your Scottish caddie would allow it  ;). They hated when I would bring out my 62* wedge and kept telling me about a ground game  ???. Anyway, the chasm is certainly puttable and I believe, with the exception of Phil Mickelson, you would get it closer with a putter.

Jim
Mr Hurricane

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2006, 06:08:30 PM »
Thanks, Brian and Jim --

I couldn't tell from the photo whether a putt would feed off the green to the right or simply go down into the chasm and back up, like a Biarritz. I'd certainly prefer to putt...if only to keep the caddie and the R&A happy.  ;)
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 08:03:22 PM »
Like Rich, I share a great fondness for the 8th and it's opening in the dune. In fact, I was reminded of it the first time I saw SFGC #12. There are some similarities.

The fairway of the 8th seems likes its two-miles wide with it's bunkers strewn about the place. Depending on the time of year and day, the wind shifts directions. To me it is one of my very favorite bump & run shots. I'll never forget looking into the turf for the very first time on this hole, and seeing the similarities to dried-gold cannabis. I didn't know whether to hit it or smoke it! (Not that I ever did, hint-hint-wink-wink)

The New Course was my very first links experience.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 08:45:47 PM »
I guess I need to play the New Course a few more times because though it is very enjoyable and has some wild features (I can't think of any links course I didn't like), I don't put it in near the same class as The Old Course.  Put it this way, The Old Course is a Doak 9 or 10 and The New Course is about a 6 or very borderline 7 at best.  One more point of clarification, for me a 7 is approaching being one of the top 250 golf courses in the world on my personal list.    

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2006, 01:34:02 AM »
Disclaimer: haven't played the New.  (Might have except for being overserved at the R&A during lunch after a.m. round on TOC.)

What could be done to jazz up the first two holes to improve the New Course experience?  ???

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2006, 09:10:30 AM »
My understanding is that The New was built to handle overflow from TOC and that that is still its main purpose. That is what I meant by a "relief" course. Whether it is harder or not, I don't know. Seems to me that's pretty irrelevant. There are lots of courses harder than TOC.

The New is an enjoyable links course which if not cheek to jowel with TOC would be considered one of many middle tier Scottish courses that might be played to fill in an otherwise idle afternoon.

Bob  

ForkaB

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2006, 10:25:01 AM »
Bob

The history is a bit murky, but the idea of a New Course was promoted by the R&A as a place where they could have exclusive rights of play, rather than being subject to sharing the Old Course with the riff-raff.  Fortunately, some Dundee lawyer saw through the charade, and when the 1894 act of Parliament was written, the R&A had no exclusivity on the New, although the right to charge a fee in the summer (the World's first green fee! :'()  was incorporated into the Act.

When built, the New was nearly 10% longer than the Old and had forced carries of 50-80 yards off most tees.  It was not for the faint of heart or weakness of large body msucles......

Brian and others below are right, Bob.  You grossly misunderestimate the New. ;)

Rich

PS--for you and all others, holes 1 and 2 are fine links golf holes, even thought they are flat.  They really needn't be changed, any more than need be the first 3 at Troon, or the 1sts at Turnberry or Dornoch, or even the Old Course...... :)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The Old Course v. New Course - Age Before Beauty?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2006, 10:31:46 AM »
Irhc,
Is that Msucles as in "Popeye" Muscles, or Musckles?


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