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Jim Nugent

What does Jack do...
« on: August 25, 2006, 08:04:30 AM »
...when his firm designs a course?  Does he ever route the courses?  If so, can anyone tell me which ones?  Does he contour fairways or bunkers?  Design green complexes?  Lay out hazards, trees, rough?  

So many people work with him, I don't have any idea what he personally does on the courses they design.  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 08:07:25 AM »
Great question, let's hope we get some answers
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Nixon

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 09:20:32 AM »
Does the term "rainmaker" ring a bell?    ;)

Tony Ristola

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 10:15:38 AM »
I read somewhere the guy had 50 projects on the go at some stage of development. Enter the Simple Math Dept.:

365 / 50 = 7.3
If he works like a machine, never taking a day off.

If he takes only Sundays off, and as no down time due to travel:
313 / 50 = 6.26

If he works a 5-day week = 5.22

Then there is travel.  Staff meetings to set the direction for the company. Family. Fun.

From what I've read from his staff in articles (Columbus Dispatch), interview on TGC, and here on GCA, someone else routes, and he edits. Think of doing 50 routings personally? Visiting the land (perhaps), and then finding all the best holes and combinations to come up with the best routing possible?

I understand he does the strategy.

This was touched on in another thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17496;start=0
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 10:28:26 AM by Tony Ristola »

JESII

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2006, 10:30:07 AM »
I do not have the first clue how Jack runs this business, but my instinct tells me that there are some courses he gets more involved in and some he is hardly involved in (personally) at all.

On a slightly different scale, would it make sense to expect Bill Gates to touch each software program leaving his shop? Jack is running a business and some of his clients want Jack's name attached to their course for obvious reasons, but may not want to pay for him to be the hands on architect. A smart business man would accommodate.

This last sentence is where I fall off the train of defending Jack's statment of never looking at other people's work, or whatever the exact quote was. That would imply he views his work as a form of art that is best produced by creating what is inside of him (and not what may be viewed as a copy from Sand Hills). If he's in the business of trying to create the best golf courses for the most people he should look around at what is being viewed as best. If he's trying to put a little of himself into each course he should do that.

Tony Ristola

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2006, 10:54:52 AM »
Quote JES II:
I do not have the first clue how Jack runs this business, but my instinct tells me that there are some courses he gets more involved in and some he is hardly involved in (personally) at all.
END
I'd agree. Simple math dictates this.

Quote JES II:
"Jack is running a business and some of his clients want Jack's name attached to their course for obvious reasons, but may not want to pay for him to be the hands on architect. A smart business man would accommodate."
"Accomodate" is the perfect word, as it reveals a certain looseness. To me it doesn't matter who would accomodate what.  In this vein, it seems everyone defaults to Donald Ross, but even he realized the weakness of his ways, and hey, shouldn't standards be elevated instead of going to the lowest common denominator? Today they've gone pretty low, and nobody questions it.  Nobody in the press.

Comparing software programs to golf courses is like comparing  clouds to asphalt, it's a little weak, but comparing Warren Buffett's analysis with what has been and is going on in the golf industry is more apt.

To me the following from Warren Buffett's letter to shareholders hits a bullseye if transferred what has happened in golf course architecture.

highly edited...
http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1998htm.html
 Accounting -- Part 2

It was once relatively easy to tell the good guys in accounting from the bad: The late 1960's, for example, brought on an orgy of what one charlatan dubbed "bold, imaginative accounting" (the practice of which, incidentally, made him loved for a time by Wall Street because he never missed expectations). But most investors of that period knew who was playing games. And, to their credit, virtually all of America's most-admired companies then shunned deception.

In recent years, probity has eroded. Many major corporations still play things straight, but a significant and growing number of otherwise high-grade managers -- CEOs you would be happy to have as spouses for your children or as trustees under your will -- have come to the view that it's okay to manipulate earnings to satisfy what they believe are Wall Street's desires. Indeed, many CEOs think this kind of manipulation is not only okay, but actually their duty.

These managers start with the assumption, all too common, that their job at all times is to encourage the highest stock price possible (a premise with which we adamantly disagree). To pump the price, they strive, admirably, for operational excellence. But when operations don't produce the result hoped for, these CEOs resort to unadmirable accounting stratagems. These either manufacture the desired "earnings" or set the stage for them in the future.

Rationalizing this behavior, these managers often say that their shareholders will be hurt if their currency for doing deals -- that is, their stock -- is not fully-priced, and they also argue that in using accounting shenanigans to get the figures they want, they are only doing what everybody else does. Once such an everybody's-doing-it attitude takes hold, ethical misgivings vanish.

The distortion du jour is...

Unfortunately, CEOs who use variations of these scoring schemes in real life tend to become addicted to the games they're playing -- after all, it's easier to fiddle with the scorecard than to spend hours on the practice tee -- and never muster the will to give them up. Their behavior brings to mind Voltaire's comment on sexual experimentation: "Once a philosopher, twice a pervert."

Berkshire has kept entirely clear of these practices: If we are to disappoint you, we would rather it be with our earnings than with our accounting. ...

Clearly the attitude of disrespect that many executives have today for accurate reporting is a business disgrace. And auditors, as we have already suggested, have done little on the positive side. Though auditors should regard the investing public as their client, they tend to kowtow instead to the managers who choose them and dole out their pay. ("Whose bread I eat, his song I sing.")

A big piece of news, however, is that the SEC, led by its chairman, Arthur Levitt, seems determined to get corporate America to clean up its act. In a landmark speech last September, Levitt called for an end to "earnings management." He correctly observed, "Too many corporate managers, auditors and analysts are participants in a game of nods and winks." And then he laid on a real indictment: "Managing may be giving way to manipulating; integrity may be losing out to illusion."

I urge you to read the Chairman's speech (you can find it on the Internet at www.sec.gov) and to support him in his efforts to get corporate America to deliver a straight story to its owners. Levitt's job will be Herculean, but it is hard to think of another more important for him to take on.
END

My guess is the press is the one who should act a little like Arthur Levitt, but they're in on the scam too, using a line from Warren Buffett's letter: ("Whose bread I eat, his song I sing."). Wouldn't it be quite something to have one person in the press corps question a tour plyer about Course "X", and if he really deserves credit for work he hasn't done? Or at least sharing credit?  No, the bad accounting goes on...  "they are only doing what everybody else does. Once such an everybody's-doing-it attitude takes hold, ethical misgivings vanish."




« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 11:01:25 AM by Tony Ristola »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2006, 11:08:18 AM »
Tony,

If Jack owns the company that the client paid to deliver a golf course, why shouldn't Jack get the credit? Did the architect responsible for much of the work think he was the reason he had the opportunity to build the course?

My analogy may well have been cumbersome, but yours is as well. Jack is not cheating anyone. The client knows what they are getting.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 11:09:23 AM by JES II »

Jim Nugent

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2006, 11:15:40 AM »
Tony, I read the older thread you linked, thanks.  I get the sense that Jack rarely if ever routes a course.  His associates do that.  Yes?  Do you or anyone know if there are any exceptions to that?

Sound like Jack has built a golf course architecture factory.  As your math shows, no course can get a whole lot of his time.  Question is, would any of the courses turn out better if he did spend more time on them?  Or does his method work as well as it can for him and his clients, design-wise?


Paul Payne

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2006, 01:35:17 PM »
This all makes me wonder,

I have played a lot of "Nicklaus" courses which I am pretty sure he may never have even seen before, such as the Bear Trace courses of Tennessee.

In the future 100 years from now how would a GCA website handle crediting the design of all these courses? Do you think it would even be possible to figure out who did the bulk of the design work? or who actually worked the site?

In the end do you think Jack would retain the main credit for these courses? If not how many courses do you think he would be credited for the design?

I am curious what youy guys think.



Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2006, 01:49:41 PM »
Fortunately, Jack Nicklaus is the only golf course architect that puts his name on a course with very little time on site, leaving the actual work to unacknowledged lackeys who suffer in silence. Posterity will certainly single out Jack Nicklaus as the sole purveyor of this fraud.


(Note: Sarcasm Alert)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 03:03:19 PM by Kirk Gill »
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2006, 01:53:57 PM »
JES II,

I agree with your last post-  Jack should get the credit because it is his company and it's his company (his name) that is bringing in the work.  To take it a step further,  he should also get design credit for work that is good because he is certainly going to be credited for work that is bad.  It goes both ways.  It's the same for Fazio, Jones, etc.  

I would also bet that he has a general set of design guidelines that his design associates follow.  
 

Paul Payne

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 02:00:05 PM »
The only difference I see between Jess's analogy and GCA is that in a company like Microsoft, Bill Gates does not place his name on the product to give the impression that he createed it.

While I agree with the comparison that the Nicklaus' design business could be viewed as any other corporate venture, I struggle with the teminology "Nicklaus designed". Possibly if they simply put the trademark logo next to his name at least you'd understand that the design credit is a concept and not in reality a design credit.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 02:09:06 PM »
Fortunately, Jack Nicklaus is the only golf course architect that puts his name on a course with very little time on site, leaving the actual work to unacknowledged lackeys who suffer in silence. Posterity will certainly single out Jack Nicklaus as the sole purveyor of this fraud.
What about Arnold Palmer.  Does he do much on the courses that are credited to him?  Or are you excusing his as he typically has a codesigner - I believe usually Ed Seay.

Jim Nugent

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 02:10:07 PM »
I still haven't learned whether Jack routes any courses.  Suppose for the sake of argument he doesn't.  Do you consider him to really be the architect of any course?  I'm a complete neophyte, and don't know.  My image of the architect was always that he or she laid out the course over the landscape.  

Or is it more like songwriting, where one person might write the lyrics, the other music, and they both rightly get credit for the finished song?  

Kirk Gill

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 02:40:43 PM »
What about Arnold Palmer.  Does he do much on the courses that are credited to him?  Or are you excusing his as he typically has a codesigner - I believe usually Ed Seay.

I was trying, with little effect perhaps, to be sarcastic. I feel like Jack Nicklaus is being singled out for something that is done by many. You mention Arnold Palmer, but there are other examples of designers (the beloved Donald Ross, for one) who spent either minimal (or NO) time on the site of golf courses that are credited to them. To say that those routings  or designs or courses are more brilliant than Nicklaus' is one thing, but to diss on Nicklaus specifically for doing something that many do strikes me as a manifestation of existing bias.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Greg Tallman

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 02:53:20 PM »
Even the courses that are initially routed by the senior design associates are often scrapped and changed when Jack visits a site.

Does he accept the routings as put forth by the associates? Of course, they are extraordinarily talented professionals in their own right. Still rather rare that Jack does not change a significant portion of the proposed routing.

There are those that have worked with Jack long enough to anticipate his thoughts on given site and thus can route a course very close to how Jack would.  

As for the comment about not understanding the term "Nicklaus designed" that is because it does not exist as far as their company is concerned.

Similar labeling has been applied by those that have had Jim or George Fazio and Roy or Matt Dye deisgn golf courses. In advertising they are often labeled only as "A Fazio Design" or "A Dye Design" Not that any of these were not quality designers in their own right but often their last name is more valuable without the first name attached.

Not dissimilar to how developers choose to use the company name of Nicklaus Design rather than the individual credited with the course design... Bill O'leary, Gary, Michael, Jackie...




PjW

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 02:56:55 PM »
Normally I would not respond to this type of thread as educating the masses is somewhat of a heavy load.  Besides I think that Jack's record as a golfer and architect stand for themselves.  Having worked on several Nicklaus projects I have soom insight into this subject.  My simple answer Jack does what he has to do based upon the work load.  Go to the nicklaus web site and look up the design options available for a client to use the nicklaus firm and/or name.  As the client you have options that involve Jack in all aspects of the process or not involved at all.  Does Jack sit in the office and push a pencil (or mouse in cadd), No.  That is what associates do.  Does he review routing options and approve them, yes.  Does he draw in the field to make a point, Yes.  Does Jack make site visits, yes; and on one project I worked on we waited three weeks until he could get to the site (playing the Open Championship caused the delay).  

I know this site likes to bash professional golfers turned architects (Crenshaw excluded) and demi-gods others.  There is a niche in the golf business for all.  Jack as the greatest golfer of his era, a sucessful architect and has great market appeal.  He has made his mark in golf history, history will determine is mark in architecture.  Taking cheap shots at Jack just shows how 'little' some people can be.

As to Jack not stepping on a course with his name on it, I have never heard of one.  If it was a Steve or Jackie design maybe not.  I know this if you pay for Jack you get Jack; and if you pay for Jack you want his ability to market as much as you want his architectural abilities.  Also, I am sure that Bob Cupp, Jay Moorsih, Scot Miller, Jim Lippe, Tom Pearson, Chris Cockran, Dave Heatwell and others do not consider themselves lackeys.  The Nicklaus organization has had a lot of quality people come through it both as architects, superintendents and managers/club pros; most are very sucessful, most I am sure thank Jack for the opportunity and credit him for a portion of their sucess.  

The creation of a golf course in more than the architecture, it is the formation of a team with a common goal.  Put together the best team and you have the potential to create the best course given the circumstances.  Jack tends to bring together good teams and his projects are generally sucessful.

Phil 8)



Jim Nugent

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 03:06:08 PM »
Kirk, Jack is hardly the only one who has been questioned over this.  Tillie's work at Bethpage Black is the subject of a burning controversy.  I've seen discussions here about whether Ross really did anything at various courses he gets credit for.  

Arnie and most other pro golfers are well known for doing little or nothing on many courses that bear their name.  I've seen the discussions here about that too.  

Jack puts himself in the golf course architecture spotlight.  His firm is a golf course design factory.  Is he really an architect himself though?  An editor is not an author, IMO.  Does "edit" accurately describe what Jack does?    

What would Jack have routed at Sebonack by himself -- not just no Doak, but no associates guiding the way either?  At Dismal River?  

Martin Del Vecchio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 03:12:25 PM »
I read somewhere about this, but of course I can't find it now.

There is a difference between a "Jack Nicklaus Design" golf course and a "Jack Nicklaus Signature" course.

For example, the Nicklaus course closest to me is at Pinehills in Plymouth, MA.  It is a "Jack Nicklaus Design" course.  The design is credited on the Nicklaus web site to Jack Nicklaus Jr.:

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/pinehills/

Then there is the "Signature" course, where the design is credited to Jack Nicklaus himself.  For example, Castle Pines:

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/castlepines/

The thing I read discussed the differences between a "Design" course and a "Signature" course.  They included the number of days Jack himself spent on site (1 or 2, as I recall), and whether or not Jack would show up for an opening day event and play the course:



I saw one of these opening day things on the Golf Channel, repackaged as a "Playing Lessons with the Pros" episode.  This is pretty much what the customer is paying for; they get to walk with Jack and show off the course to the press and friends.

And don't forget the money shot.  Can we assume that the third person in this shot is the money guy?




« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 03:32:11 PM by Martin Del Vecchio »

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 03:15:35 PM »
Having said that, I will say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the Nicklaus courses I have played;  Pinehills, Great Waters, and Kuaui Lagoons.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 04:32:47 PM »
Jim:  From my experience at Sebonack, I had the sense that Jack did the same things there that he does on all his courses, and that's why he was comfortable working in collaboration with me on it.

The routing is mine.  His company had done some other versions, with some similarities and some differences, and when we first met we went over my routing and he was clearly familiar with it.  I suspect this is the same on his own courses -- an associate does some routings, he makes comments and suggests changes.

On our first site visit together, we walked every hole and discussed possible routing changes as well as clearing questions.

After that, he made six site visits, all of them coinciding with mine.  He was there for a day at a time (sometimes 1 1/2), I was there for 4-5 days.  But every time he was there, we walked every hole, talked through the shaping and the strategy, and he made comments or suggestions or decisions.  He approved every hole prior to irrigation installation, and I think he does so on all of the courses which are credited as "Jack Nicklaus Signature" designs.  He also participated in THREE different p.r. events, from the groundbreaking two years ago to the members' day last fall to the Grand Opening yesterday.

I don't know how he participates on other "Nicklaus Design" courses, if at all; and I don't think he makes nearly as many site visits on overseas projects, but that is detailed in his contracts.

I fully believe Jack wants to make every decision on every course his name goes on.  The only problem is he has to make them really quickly because his time is spread so thin.  He likes to work quickly -- he told me and Jim Urbina that we ought to get a two-stroke penalty for taking so long to make a decision! -- whereas I prefer to sleep on things and take another look in the morning, which I learned from Bill Coore.

Jim Nugent

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2006, 01:29:20 AM »
Thanks, Tom.  For anyone who cares to answer, my question is still out there: is someone who never routes a course really a golf course architect?  

Also, if Jack spent more time on a course (other than Sebonack), could they turn out better?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 01:31:36 AM by Jim Nugent »

TEPaul

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2006, 06:49:45 AM »
Tom Doak:

Thanks for reply #20. For those who can only speculate on how Nicklaus probably goes about contributing to the design of a golf course that post is probably as factually accurate as one can get.

Tom Doak said he did the routing of Sebonak and in a brief conversation with Mr Pascucci he confirmed that.

I talked to Mike Pascucci in the trailer one time for about five minutes and about four of those minutes were about his friend, football great Jim Brown (Pascucci, Jim Brown and I grew up in mid-Long Island).

The other minute was about Sebonak's routing. My recollection is that Pascucci said a bunch of routings were done on the property but when Doak became involved he sent him a topo map and Doak did a routing for the course and sent it back before seeing the property and basically that's Sebonak's routing.

I have a lot of admiration for architects who can do a really good routing off a topo map because to me, no matter how used to topo maps I will ever get I just can't get that great a sense of what the hole landforms really look like once you get there and look at them in person.

But apparently Doak doesn't have any problem with that and to me that's a bit of a special talent. Obviously it comes with experience but I doubt it could for everyone.

Mike_Young

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Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2006, 07:50:15 AM »
This is the kind of thread that I probably should not answer.
As the greatest golfer ever he has brought golf architecture into an era where the "so called mediocre guys" like myself can actiually charge enough fee to be in the business.  His reputation from his career enabled a brand identity that is considered the tops in the industry.....
There are possiblly 1400 on this site that would care to differ from the 24 million that would be proud and gracious to be a member or play one of his courses.....starting with Harbor Town I would say he has grown the dsign business to what it is today....
Oh...and HE DOES WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO......
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Nugent

Re:What does Jack do...
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2006, 08:00:35 AM »
Quote
As the greatest golfer ever he has brought golf architecture into an era where the "so called mediocre guys" like myself can actiually charge enough fee to be in the business.  His reputation from his career enabled a brand identity that is considered the tops in the industry.....
There are possiblly 1400 on this site that would care to differ from the 24 million that would be proud and gracious to be a member or play one of his courses.....starting with Harbor Town I would say he has grown the dsign business to what it is today.  

Mike, that's real interesting.  You give Jack most of the credit for modern golf course architecture, at least as a business.  Are you willing to elaborate more on your thoughts?  

TEPaul, what you said about how Doak routed Sebaonack made me think of how nearly all great composers write music.  They do it in their head, and then write the notes down on paper.  They don't sit at a piano or other instruments and play.  (Chopin, I hear, was one exception to that.)  

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