[Patrick_Mucci]

Sebonack, NGLA, Sand Hills and GCGC all have wide fairways.

All four courses usually experience prevailing winds of varying velocities.

Do windy sites dictate/mandate wide fairways ?

What windy sites don't have wide fairways ?

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

So I have a better definition of what you consider wide, are Pacific Dunes' fairways wide in general (some are and some aren't in my eyes)?

Playing at Prairie Dunes a couple of weeks after the Senior Open, I didn't think they were particularly wide, but I don't know if that was the Open setup or not..

[Matt_Cohn]

Windy sites tend to be wide open. The wind blows harder on an open plain than it does in a forest.

Maybe it's this openness - not just the wind itself - that contributes to wider fairways. It's been stated many times on this site that wide open spaces call for wider fairways and larger features.

By the way, Southern Hills, and pretty much every other Maxwell course, utilize narrow fairways on windy (but not really wide open) sites.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

Doesn't that have at least as much if not more to do with the firm conditions and strategic intent that there be good/bad angles into the greens due to the firm approaches and greens?

There's no reason why you couldn't have less penal rough and fairly narrow conditions on a windy course.  It would reward those players who can hit the low shots to stay out of the wind or work the ball into the wind to hold it on line.

[David_Madison]

Wouldn't it be fairer to say that most good windy sites have wide corridors, but that fairway widths might not always be so generous for any number of reasons including tournament set-ups? And obviously wider corridors contribute to windier conditions, especially when prevailing winds run across the line of a hole.

Haven't seen any cases of architects intentionally narrowing corridors to get a wind tunnel effect, but that might be an interesting idea, especially when there are high dunes on either side.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

It seems to be somewhat of an old architectural formula or standard that high prevailing winds dictate wide fairways but in my opinion the thing that should dictate the width of any fairway is the inherent strategic concept and make-up of any golf hole. Determing what that strategic make-up is and what the appropriate fairway width should be can be remarkably simple, in my opinion.

But for someone like you to try to determine it, obviously you'd need my help.  

[Tom_Doak]

"What windy sites don't have wide fairways?"

Patrick:  Every time I go to the UK I am amazed at how narrow the fairways actually are.  The look of the courses is quite open because of the lack of trees, but the fairways themselves are mostly narrow ... last week I was out on Muirfield, North Berwick, Dunbar and Gullane No. 3, and most of the fairways I saw were 25-30 yards wide, with a handful of exceptions.

On some of those courses the rough is fairly playable so there is still the option of playing for an angle to the green, even out of the rough ... but the main reasons you play the angles there more are that

1) the wind makes you think about it even if you haven't or couldn't have positioned yourself properly, and

2) the courses are set up much shorter than ours so you're closer to the greens and you have more chance to obtain a shallower angle into the green.

Also, no one ever seems to mention it, but in windy conditions the wind comes into play on short pitches and chips, too ... you can't afford to miss upwind of the hole if there's any kind of hazard guarding that side of the green, and it's that which is coming into play, more than taking a direct penalty on the approach shot.

[Doug Siebert]

That's a good point about Muirfield, I was surprised at how narrow the fairways were when I played there in August 2001.  I'm not sure they were narrowed any from that time to the Open the following summer, it didn't look like it from TV but its difficult to tell for sure.  But I am certain they cut the rough lower for the Open.  It was about knee height for those guys, it was thigh height when I was there (and chest high on #2 just past the fairway bunker I hooked my 1 iron over, I was damn fortunate my dad somehow found it)  Its not super thick of course, you can play out of it and even hit a full shot about normal distance (including roll) with a short iron if you draw a halfway decent lie so you can get enough club on it.  I played there on a day with little wind like the first two days of the 2002 Open, I could see it being pretty tough on a day like the Saturday there where Tiger shot his 82 (same score I did on the windless day from pretty much the same tees!)

A lot of the Irish courses have fairly narrow fairways on some holes -- in some places they are less than 10 yards wide, with those huge grass covered dunes on either side.  You are almost better off hitting the ball high above the top of the dunes, instead of trying to keep it really low under them.  At least high up it is in the wind the whole time and you can attempt to allow for it, when its going low under the dune tops it is randomly in and out of the wind.  When you are walking down the fairway you can have some places where you can't feel the wind at all, some where you feel the full 30-40 mph, some where it is even stronger like being surrounded by tall buildings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Are today's fairway widths at the courses you visited a product of preparation for tournaments and/or a byproduct of irrigation systems.

On the golf channel last night they showed an old Open from Turnberry.  One of the comments was, that the wide fairways were an inherent accomodation to the windy conditions.

Carnoustie was narrowed and other Open courses have been narrowed.  Do you think that the Non-Open courses follow in their big brother's foot steps ?

Do you think that the trend in golf over the last 10 years, and today, is to narrow fairways ?

With winds sweeping # 18 at Sebonack, could that hole survive as an enjoyable hole with narrow fairways and deep flanking rough ?

I doubt it.

As it is, from the tee, the hole looks formidable WITH wide fairways.   Narrowing that fairway would hurt, not help, that hole.

I feel narrowing fairways on holes swept by the wind, especially holes with dire features such as # 9 and # 10 at Turnberry and # 18 at Sebonack and NGLA isn't in the best architectural and playability interest of the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Doesn't that have at least as much if not more to do with the firm conditions and strategic intent that there be good/bad angles into the greens due to the firm approaches and greens?


NO

You can't control Mother Nature.

Newport is a prime example.

I've played it in the summer when it was lush, soft and GREEN.
Making it play fast and firm was impossible.

I'm not talking about a zephyr of a breeze, I'm talking about WINDY sites.

Try making a course on the ocean in Florida play fast and firm in the summer.

Fast and firm is a geographical luxury where Mother Nature decides to co-operate.

There's no reason why you couldn't have less penal rough and fairly narrow conditions on a windy course.  It would reward those players who can hit the low shots to stay out of the wind or work the ball into the wind to hold it on line.

Where would you place the bunkers on the narrow fairways ?

Narrow fairways don't function well on windy courses because the fairways are effectively 1/2 to 1/3 their actual width when the wind blows.

Could you cite just five (5) golf courses on windy sites that have narrow fairways, and not where Opens have been hosted in the last 20 years.

[ForkaB]

Could you cite just five (5) golf courses on windy sites that have narrow fairways, and not where Opens have been hosted in the last 20 years.[/b]

Pat

Just off the top of my head, and just some of the ones I've played over the past 2-3 years:

New Course
Eden Course
Jubillee Course
Dornoch
Struie
Skibo
Elie
Lundin Links
Dunbar
North Berwick (West)

Hell, I'll even throw in Brora, if you are talking about effective width (in fast and firm and reasonably windy conditions), which you should be, of course......

And just to add:

Deal
Littlestone
Gullane #1
Crail (Balcomie)
Crail (Craighead)
Cruden Bay......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

What do you define as narrow ?

[ForkaB]

Rich,

What do you define as narrow ?

You have to land your drive within a 5-10 yard corridor in order to be able to attack whatever pin in on the green on the day.  Miss that corridor and you are scrambling--even if you are on the "fairway."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

You've provided me with the target width, not the fairway width.

What's the fairway width, rough line to rough line ?

[john_stiles]

Pat,

In the Southport area a few weeks ago,  it seemed the fairways were about  25 to 40 yards wide.

In some cases, this seemed to be due to the nature of the ground and dunes.  Some fairways widths are dictated by the ground in that they can't have a wide fairway unless you grade some rougher areas to the sides.

Wallasey, Silloth, St Annes Old, Hesketh, Formby, West Lancs, Southport & Ainsdale had many fairways that were less than 40.   None had fairways that even approach 60 yards at these very windy locations.

Fortunately, the area had little rain this summer and the roughs were fairly benign as those things go.

Would it not be as much an economical choice to not maintain wide fairways ?   I can't imagine wasting manpower and gas to maintain wide fairways at many of these courses.

[ForkaB]

Pat

On most of the holes on most of the courses I have mentioned, if you do not land in the "target area" you will be in the "rough."  In a few cases, the "target area" is actually in the light rough, which is the only way under certain conditions to end up in the "fairway".  On some of those holes, the "fairway" is 50+ yards in width.  This is what is meant by "fast and firm" in the home of golf.

It must be relaxing playing lesser versions of this concept on Long Island and elsewhere.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Stiles,

Tom Doak indicated that with certain grasses, maintaining fairway versus rough was not that much of an additional financial burden.

Rich,

You ask a good question.

Is a wide fairway that has a narrow or optimal LZ really target golf ?

Target golf has been villified on this site

[ForkaB]

Pat

I trademarked the phrase "All golf is target golf, it is just the nature of the target which changes" several years ago, on this site.  Anybody who thinks that links golf (or any golf on fast and firm surfaces) is not "target golf" is sorely mistaken.

Thanks for the endorsement!

Rich

[john_stiles]

Rich,

With the light roughs in Southport area,  there were quite a few times where you could see to land in the light rough and let it bounce into the fairway.

As mentioned,  the wind made the effective widths very, very small.  Only a downwind hole allowed the slicing and hooking muscles to relax.

Regardless of possible architectural considerations, I just do not see the Brits or Scots maintaining 60 yards fairways.

60 yard fairways, even in the hard firm conditions on very windy locations, would be a terrible waste of funds.

[ForkaB]

Rich,

With the light roughs in Southport area,  there were quite a few times where you could see to land in the light rough and let it bounce into the fairway.

As mentioned,  the wind made the effective widths very, very small.  Only a downwind hole allowed the slicing and hooking muscles to relax.

Regardless of possible architectural considerations, I just do not see the Brits or Scots maintaining 60 yards fairways.

60 yard fairways, even in the hard firm conditions on very windy locations, would be a terrible waste of funds.

Thanks, John

Vis a vis maintaining the 60 yard fairways, they don't!  After all, they are Scots.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sand Hills, Hidden Creek, GCGC, NGLA, Sebonack and others seem capable of maintaining wide fairways.

Tom Doak indicates that with a variety of grasses, maintaining fairway versus rough isn't that expensive.

Doesn't the wide fairway issue boil down to having to reconfigure the irrigation system ?

[Nick Church]

I've read several times over the years that prevailing winds have to play into the course design, to include fairway width.

It seems logical as to why the Open Championship produces great scoring when the winds are not omnipresent.  The widths & overall design were conceived with allowing for the winds.

[Lou_Duran]

P. Mucci,

Probably as important as fairway width is hole orientation on windy sites.  Ralph Plummer who designed many courses in Texas liked to route his holes across the prevailing winds so as to encourage the golfer to work the ball and not just fight the wind all of the time.  He also liked to change the direction of consecutive holes to add variety as a result of the wind and topographical factors.

BTW, as you've gotten older, have you noticed that holes into the wind play more difficult than in the past?  Perhaps it is just me, but I've lost the ability to hit the low-boring shot.  Is width not much more rewarding to the younger, long hitter?

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

Many Scottish and Irish courses have narrow fairways, but not all of them have all fairways narrow or are narrow everywhere from tee to green.  Muirfield like I said was pretty narrow.  Prestwick also has some very narrow fairways, some less than 20 yards wide in the most desireable (i.e., level) landing areas.  But you can look at Troon, North Berwick, the New, Jubilee, Ballybunion, Lahinch, and on and on and you can find some awfully narrow fairways on some portion of the holes.  Like I said earlier it is not uncommon for fairways to narrow to less than 10 yards in places, but you might also find some places where they widen to 50+ yards, on the same hole.

Plus there are different types of 'narrow'.  Some courses have gorse right up to the very edge of the fairway.  If a fairway is 40 yards wide with gorse on both sides that's much narrower in reality than a fairway that's 20 yards wide with the foot deep wispy rough you'd find at say Prestwick or Troon.

I remember one hole at Dornoch (I think it was 7, this was 15 years ago so I can't remember for sure) that played uphill, into a stiff breeze, with a narrow fairway that had acres of gorse on both sides.  I didn't think I'd see a scarier tee shot in Scotland.  Until I played a few rounds on Troon's munis, they were ALL like that, I lost so many balls there I started using ones I found looking for the ones I'd lost rather than wasting any more new ones since I still had a few rounds on big name courses left and knew I'd otherwise run out of balls!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

One would think that there would be an "architectural" reason for the very narrow fairways you describe.

Fairway widths in the DZ of seven to twenty yards is extremely narrow and difficult to believe.

At what distance from the tee are those fairways narrowed down to those widths ?

Or, is it a budgetary issue that ignores or overrides the architectural intent ?

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