Is it the best par 3 in golf ?

« **on:** August 21, 2006, 10:44:30 PM »

The 11th at The Creek ?

Is there a more DIVERSE, interesting, challenging par 3 anywhere in golf.

With a green approximately 90 yards in depth, in a biarritz like configuration, surrounded by water, and buffeted by winds off Long Island Sound, with a variety of tees, is it simply the best par 3 in golf ?

What par 3 has more diversity ?

« **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2006, 11:19:30 PM »

Pat,
I agree that the 11th at the Creek is an outstanding hole and offers a great deal of diversity. But is that all that is needed to make it the greatest par 3 in golf?

I was surprised the green did not have more contours. I had a fifty foot putt there today that was almost dead straight.

As a result, it is easier to play it safe. When the pin is up at Yale's 9th, you cannot go too long because the biarritz is so severe. That brings the water into play. At the Creek's 11th, I just took an extra club to take the water out of play and had a relatively easy two-putt for my par. If the swale was more pronounced, I would have been more likely to challenge the front pin position.

« **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2006, 11:23:57 PM »

Pat, I like 11, but at the TOC. I am not sure the Creek version is as good as the biarritz hole at Fox Chapel

« **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:00:36 AM »

I would say the 3rd and the 5th at PVGC would tie for the best par 3 in golf, of course i haven't played any of the already mentioned par 3's besides yale...

« **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:02:47 AM »

Pat - I love the hole, but not in an absolute sense. I think it is unique among biarritz holes, and so I view it as sort of novelty. For me, I'm not sure I would call it variety, so much as flexibility. When the pin is up front it is a very tame hole. When it is back, it is tougher, but as David notes, not exceedingly so.

In my mind, the island nature of the hole decreases its interest to me. I tend to like par 3s where missing the green creates interesting opportunities. But that's me.

Interestingly, if you look at the MacD/Raynor plan in the clubhouse (which is also featured on the front of the scorecard), you will notice that, in contrast to how the hole is appears today, most of the front part of the island (up to the swale) was not kept as greenspace.

Lastly, I'm not even certain that its the best Biarritz in Locust Valley

Sounds like you played The Creek today. Are you ready to concede the skyline bet we have on #5? It's going on a few years now, and those trees aren't getting any smaller.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:33:23 AM »

I haven't played it but think saying its the best par 3 in the world is a little offbeat. A few years ago, Golf Digest rated the 16th at Cypress Point the best par 3 in the world. In 2000, Golf Magazine rated the top 100 holes in the world and the 11th at The Creek didn't make the list.

http://www.golflink.com/golf-course-awards/best-golf-courses.asp?id=14

As far as my favorites, the 15th and 16th at Cypress Point are hard to beat.

« **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2006, 01:17:28 AM »

Can anyone post pictures of the holes being mentioned?

« **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2006, 08:19:45 AM »

Patrick:

You must be having a rough week.

The 11th at The Creek is a very good long par 3 but there is no way it's the best par 3 in golf. Great par-3's are generally about having a tough shot to hit and hold the green, not about hitting a driver and trying to two-putt from long range.

I'm glad you like the work we did there, though.

« **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2006, 08:31:25 AM »

Tom,

Patrick is intriged by the flexibility of the hole. My 10 year old made Par yesterday

from the forward tee with a forward pin, an 8 iron shot for him. Thus, Dylan is in agreement with Patrick, but he still does not cheer for Notre Dame.

In a informal poll afterward, it appeared that everyone made 3 or 5 with that forward pin. If the pin is in the middle or back, I would assume that more 4's would appear from 3 putts.

« **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2006, 09:21:00 AM »

The only time I played the Creek was in last summer's event organized by Mike Sweeney. The hole doesn't stand out in my memory because, as Mike says above, the pin was up, the tee was up, and it was 8-iron to 20' and two putts. The 10th and 12th were more fun to play. I can see how the hole could be a lot more challenging with tee back, pin back, wind howling off the water....

Tom Doak, what did you guys do there and when? I really loved the green and bunkering at #6, hopefully you rebuilt that to CBM's original specs!

The Creek's a great layout. I loved the upper and lower split between the holes, with the marvelous introduction to the view of the water and holes below at the 6th tee after walking off the

"skyline" 5th green! Yes, cut down a bunch of trees and of course that is a skyline green.

I thought the Eden hole #4 was pretty tame, I wish more American evocations were as challenging as the original.

The clubhouse complex is lovely, and the beach club with lobster and filet mignon was an unexpected bonus!

« **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2006, 10:43:11 AM »

Quote from: David Mulle on August 21, 2006, 11:19:30 PM

Pat,
I agree that the 11th at the Creek is an outstanding hole and offers a great deal of diversity. But is that all that is needed to make it the greatest par 3 in golf?

What other par 3 has it's diversity and all of those other elements.

The hole is so much more multi-dimensional than any of the other par 3's listed so far.[/color]

I was surprised the green did not have more contours. I had a fifty foot putt there today that was almost dead straight.

At 240 yards, surrounded by water, with strong winds, what kind of contour would you be lookng for ?

Wouldn't substantive contour be excessive ?[/color]

As a result, it is easier to play it safe. When the pin is up at Yale's 9th, you cannot go too long because the biarritz is so severe. That brings the water into play. At the Creek's 11th, I just took an extra club to take the water out of play and had a relatively easy two-putt for my par. If the swale was more pronounced, I would have been more likely to challenge the front pin position.

Dave, yesterday the hole played at 135 yards.
You played a forward tee to a forward pin position.

Yale's 9th can't play to 135 yards. It's very limited in what it can present to the golfer.
It's a long hole, with water only fronting the green, with little or no wind.

Could Mike Sweeney's son ever par it ?
No. For him, the 9th at Yale is unplayable.
It lacks diversity, wind and water all around.[/color]

« **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2006, 10:45:45 AM »

Quote from: Bryce Mueller on August 22, 2006, 12:00:36 AM

I would say the 3rd and the 5th at PVGC would tie for the best par 3 in golf, of course i haven't played any of the already mentioned par 3's besides yale...

Bryce,

Both holes lack diversity, especially # 5.
Ask yourself this question.

Which hole would you prefer to play, EVERY day, for the rest of your life ?

The 11th at The Creek is simply the best.[/color]

« **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:00:12 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on August 22, 2006, 08:19:45 AM

Patrick:

You must be having a rough week.

No, actually, I"m having a great week.[/color]

The 11th at The Creek is a very good long par 3 but there is no way it's the best par 3 in golf.

Yesterday it played at 135, and if a forward tee were used it would have played even shorter.

You categorized it as a long par 3, but, it's much, much more.

It's anywhere from a Sand Wedge to a Driver.
But, diversity in distance is only part of its attraction.

With any hole location near its perimeter it becomes a very interesting hole, especially for golfers who CAN'T work the ball. And, if you consider the wind that buffets the hole, it gets even more interesting.

Where else in golf are 200+ foot putts possible from on the green ?[/color]

Great par-3's are generally about having a tough shot to hit and hold the green, not about hitting a driver and trying to two-putt from long range.

With holes cut to the flanks, at 100 yards or 250 yards, and the wind blowing as it normally does, you can create a tough shot to hit and hold the green.

The diversity of the hole is without parallel.[/color]

I'm glad you like the work we did there, though.

I think it's terrific.

However, as much as I like short holes, I miss the donut or horseshoe ridge in the 17th green.

There are so many good holes on that golf course that get overshadowed by holes like # 6 and # 11.

It's an enjoyable golf course and the wind makes it special.

The Creek should consider a tree management program, and, continuing with a genuine restoration program.

It's a wonderful, wonderful golf course.[/color]

« **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:01:49 AM »

Quote from: Jim Nugent on August 22, 2006, 01:17:28 AM

Can anyone post pictures of the holes being mentioned?

Jim,

Try Google Earth until someone posts ground level pictures.[/color]

« **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:02:17 AM »

I have never played the aforementioned hole so I won't comment on that specifically.

It just seems that if diversity is the main factor for being a great hole, couldn't all architects use this formula to create "the best par three in the world."

Just build a 75-100 yard deep island green so that the hole can have a large variety of distances/hole locations.

What makes the 11th at The Creek special? What about it makes it difficult to imitate in future designs?

« **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:05:59 AM »

SPDB,

You can't look at the 11th hole in the sole context of a biarritz hole.

It's so much more.

Biarritz's are played at yardages well beyond what the 11th can be played at.

And, most don't have the wind factor anywhere near that that the 11th enjoys.

The total island nature is unique as well.

« **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:09:32 AM »

Brian Jones,

How would the architect create the wind, an integral element in the design and play of the hole ?

« **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2006, 11:18:30 AM »

Quote from: redanman on August 22, 2006, 11:07:24 AM

#11 at Shinnecock is a fine little hole anyone can play.
Where's the diversity ?
It's a great hole, but, it's one dimensional.[/color]

2 or 20 is a fine little hole anyone can play.

Where's the diversity ?[/color]

Why does a hole need to stretch to 240?

Have you ever played the hole ?

The hole can play from 100 yards or less to 250 or more depending upon the wind.

It has an infinite number of interesting and challenging hole locations.

What's wrong with tasking someone with a very long putt if they've failed to properly approach the hole location of the day ?

Have you ever played the hole ?[/color]

What is it with Mucci and massive greens on par 3's?

It's a theory you're not familiar with.
Greens within a green.
# 6 at NGLA would be a good example.

Do you find fault with that green ?
Do you find fault with that hole ?[/color]

Has he ever sung the praises of Friar's Head #10 with its ridiculous green?

Yes, but, I don't consider the green and hole ridiculous, like you do.[/color]

If he did I missed it, but I have other things to do at times and wouldn't dare read every thread on here.

I'm fairly busy myself, and as such I tend to ignore off topic threads, while focusing on architectural threads, but, we each have to make choices.[/color]

Is Beverly #8 the greatest par 4 in golf with its 90 yard deep green?

I don't know, what do you think ?
[/color]

« **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:03:26 PM »

Quote from: redanman on August 22, 2006, 11:43:15 AM

What is it with Mucci and massive greens on par 3's?

It's a theory you're not familiar with.
Greens within a green.
# 6 at NGLA would be a good example.[/color]

You're in outer space if you think that, what the hell do you know what I know? I have however played that green less than you, perhaps only 25 times. Plus I knew your G-I-G theory already. There are 4,256 post on it (I counted them all).

Do you find fault with that green ?
Do you find fault with that hole ?[/color]

No

Has he ever sung the praises of Friar's Head #10 with its ridiculous green?[/color]

Yes, but, I don't consider the green and hole ridiculous, like you do.

It's ridiculous because it is not a green within a green. It's different, but I don't consider it great nor interesting. I don't drink Kool-Aid.

I never said that the 10th at Friar's Head was a green within a green.

You need to read these posts more carefully.

Have you ever played the fifth at Toronto GC?

NO

Is that greens within a green?

I wouldn't know, I never played it

There are about 25 good, interesting pin positioins there, but alas, it's a par 4.

Is it the best par 4 in the world?

What is the best of anything in golf, what does it mean?

It means that Tiger is better than everybody else.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:12:02 PM »

Having never played the hole, Pat, I am just going to ask an obvious question.

Is it better than CPC #16?

CPC is long, can be played at 200-230 yards, and has a lay-up area, something in which an island green does not present.
CPC has wind as well, and probably as much as #11 has at the Creek.
When the tees are all the way back is the hole really playable for all players?
I know #16 CPC is, by wirute of a lay-up shot which still in itself is a tough shot.
Plus, the raw and natural beauty of the ocean, the cypress trees, plus the history would make the hole at least equal if not better than #11 at the Creek no?

Ok I am done but something to think about...

« **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:45:28 PM »

Funny story: I spoke with one of the pros at my club this morning and when I mentioned I played The Creek yesterday the first thing he said was "That 11th hole is really something isn't it?" When I spoke with the managing partner of my firm about yesterday the first thing he said was "The Creek, that's the one with the really great par 3 through the marsh isn't it?"

So clearly the hole stands out and as I said, I agree it is an outstanding hole. I just wouldn't put it in the top ten par 3s I have played (and I am not nearly as well traveled as almost everyone else on this board).

Pat,
To respond to your specific questions (or try to anyway

): The 11th is multi-dimensional in the sense that it can be played at a lot of different yardages, but I don't see why that is as much of a virtue as you are claiming.

Personally, I would prefer a course that had a really great short par 3 with a severe, well protected green and a longer par 3 with a less contoured green. It seems that you might lose something when a hole fills both purposes.

The flexibility also doesn't strike me as that unique. Depending upon the wind and pin position I have hit anything from 9 iron to 4 wood at the 14th at Inwood. I suspect other courses on windy sites have similar holes.

In my opinion, the water surrounding the hole diminishes the diversity of the hole. You are either putting or reteeing.

If the green at the 11th was more contoured, it would be a better fit with the green within a green theory. Without more severe contours there is little incentive to challenge pins that are near the edges. That is why I referenced my straightforward 50 foot putt on the 11th yesterday and the 9th at Yale in my original post.

You are right, it is unlikely that Mike Sweeney's son would have parred the 9th at Yale. However, if that is his biggest problem playing Yale (the 3rd is the first drive that jumps to mind), then he is a much better golfer than I was at 10!!!

« **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2006, 12:45:31 PM »

It looks like this is becoming an annual (almost to the day) topic for Pat:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=19532

« **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2006, 01:12:28 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on August 22, 2006, 11:00:12 AM

Where else in golf are 200+ foot putts possible from on the green ?

St Andrews TOC has greens where 200 or even 300 foot putts are possible (if you're a really erratic player) from on the green. Even a par 3, Eden, with potentially a 90 yard green, but, of course that's in the width, and it's not surrounded by water. But it has wind and diversity of pin locations.

I've never played the Creek, but from the aerials, it appears that the tees are in more or less a straight line. Where's the diversity of teeing angles to the green.

When I first read your post I thought you were going to say the 17th at the Ocean Course at Kiawah. But then it's not surrounded, or 90 yards long, but it does have wind and a diversity of teeing angles.

« **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2006, 02:50:03 PM »

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on August 22, 2006, 08:31:25 AM

Tom, Patrick is intriged by the flexibility of the hole. My 10 year old made Par yesterday from the forward tee with a forward pin, an 8 iron shot for him. Thus, Dylan is in agreement with Patrick, but he still does not cheer for Notre Dame. quote]

Mike, what kind of parent are you? You must sit Dylan down on Sept. 2 in front of the tv for the ND/GT game and force him to become an Irish fan for life. This is the perfect year for it, a National Championship and a Heisman Trophy winner. He will thank you for it later in life as much as teaching him golf.
As far as the topic goes, #3 at Olympic or #7 at Pebble have topped my list of great holes I have played and are nationally recognized top par 3's.

« **Reply #24 on:** August 22, 2006, 02:58:05 PM »

In my mind a template hole cannot be the best par 3 in golf. I much prefer a green site that is or is made to look more natural. The concept of a biarritz green is fun to play but is not great because it is so obviously man-made and replicated. While the settings and yardages differ, the hole is not unique enough to be great. That's my definition of greatness and I'm sticking to it. By the way, if a template hole was to be considered great, I would choose the 4th at NGLA over the 11th at The Creek. And I love the Creek as a club, as a course in general and the 11th in particular. But the best par 3 on the planet? NO WAY. I can think of many that I like better (it is subjective and I respect Pat's opinion) such as Merion's 3rd. In my mind it is a lot better and even offers the desired diversity that Pat is looking for. It has better angles, multiple pin positions, length and outstanding internal slopes and contours.

I don't understand why Pat insists that diversity is key to greatness. Does that mean that holes that are based upon shot testing cannot be great? If so, Pine Valley, Merion, Huntingdon Valley, Shinnecock and other courses must not be great. Was the 11th green at The Creek always green height on both plateaus? A 1938 aerial I have indicates that the front part was not green. So, if not original, it was not intended to be the hole Pat enjoys today. Shouldn't that enter the equation?

I agree with BillV (imagine that) that the 11th at Shinnecock Hills is magnificent. The entire collection of par 3s there is exceptionally fine as was Flynn's tendency to create outstanding collections of par 3s on nearly all his courses.

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