[John_Conley]

I can't say I'm familiar with who he is, but his round today at Chaska Town Course provides fuel for the argument that golf courses need to be 7500 yards (Medinah, Hazeltine) or more (RTJ Trail).

I've played Chaska once and have plenty to handle.  He played it once and made THIRTTEEN 3s.

While what we saw at the PGA wasn't that interesting, it at least didn't yield low scores.  Nobody scared the Major record of 63.  

One might argue that Augusta or the TPC at Sawgrass can still challenge top players.  True, but in order to do that the setup is so tricked up that an ordinary golfer might not be able to get around easily.  (I know.  My one and only round on the TPC was the Saturday following the event.  The greens may as well have been paved and the rough was so thick I couldn't hit and hold the green from 150 and every chip was hack and hope.)

Today is a good indication that a good par 71 of 6600 or whatever just can't hold up to a great player under "normal" conditions.  (I have a feeling the setup was pretty tough today, so I think "normal" is stretching it.)

I think we've all identified the 'problem'.  I also think anyone that believe they have the simple answer is oversimplifying things.

I'm curious to see what he shoots tomorrow.  He might fire 75 and still medal.

[MargaretC]

John:

I'm not sure that I agree with your comment, ...I can't say I'm familiar with who he is, but his round today at Chaska Town Course provides fuel for the argument that golf courses need to be 7500 yards (Medinah, Hazeltine) or more (RTJ Trail).

I'm not familiar with either Chaska or Hazeltine, but I have difficulty grasping that length is the answer.  It just sounds too "formula" for me because I don't see the game of golf as a battle of long drives.

Medinah's style doesn't appeal to me at all, but in some respects, I think the length of Medinah worked against it.  Most of the top players are capable of rocket-launch drives, so why re-work a course to play into that strength?

[JR Potts]

John:

I'm not sure that I agree with your comment, ...I can't say I'm familiar with who he is, but his round today at Chaska Town Course provides fuel for the argument that golf courses need to be 7500 yards (Medinah, Hazeltine) or more (RTJ Trail).

I'm not familiar with either Chaska or Hazeltine, but I have difficulty grasping that length is the answer.  It just sounds too "formula" for me because I don't see the game of golf as a battle of long drives.

Medinah's style doesn't appeal to me at all, but in some respects, I think the length of Medinah worked against it.  Most of the top players are capable of rocket-launch drives, so why re-work a course to play into that strength?

Maybe you missed it but I walked with Tiger yesterday.  He hit only three drivers all day.  Nobody was rocket-launching drivers.....they (Tiger) just hit their irons whereever the hell they want.  Then they (Tiger) hit their putts exactly where they (Tiger) want and the exact speed they (Tiger) want.  If they (Tiger) happen to make a mistake and hit it in the bunker or somthing, they (Tiger) hit perfect recovery shots.  

There is no solution to containing Tiger......

[MargaretC]

Ryan:

My error.  I should have said that the top golfers today are able to launch the ball great distances from the tee -- without using a driver.

It absolutely makes no sense to me to to attempt to "Tiger-proof" any golf course for many reasons and you've identified several.

Shoot, I did miss seeing you with Tiger yesterday -- Drats!  Please wear a sign next time!

[Jason Topp]

I enjoy Chaska a lot, but I was pretty surprised the scores were not lower.  Good players can reach all 3 of the holes they played as par fives as well as drive 2 of the par fours (one probably with an iron or 3 wood).  I think they would have wedges into six other par threes and fours.  That is 11 great birdie opportunities on a perfect day with little wind.  Most other par fours would have been mid to short irons.  

Unless they narrowed them, the fairways at Chaska are very wide although the rough is very difficult.  The greens have little in the way of contour.

Despite these factors, 16 of 156 players broke par and the scoring average was 74.372 (par 71) compared with 78.700 (par 72) at Hazeltine.  The 60 was the best round by 6 shots and I was surprised to see that the 285 yard 2nd and the 316 yard 16th played over par.  The pins on those holes must have been tough, but I cannot think of a spot on either green that would have been too nasty.

While I agree that courses need to be in the 7500 yard range to test all of the irons for approaches into the greens, Chaska held up well for a short course in perfect scoring conditions.

I hope to get out there a bit tomorrow just to see how top amateurs play a course with which I am very familiar.

If scoring tomorrow matches today, the cut will be 146 (75 Hazeltine and 71 Chaska).

[JR Potts]

ME....in the orange.  My .1 seconds of fame.

[John_Conley]

It absolutely makes no sense to me to to attempt to "Tiger-proof" any golf course for many reasons and you've identified several.

The media really whiffed when they termed any lengthening of a course as a "Tiger proofing".  He's not in the field this week and the USGA is still faced with the issue of challenging the field.

Look at the numbers.  Chaska was not very demanding today.

[John_Conley]

I enjoy Chaska a lot, but I was pretty surprised the scores were not lower.  

When is the last tie a US Am course was blitzed?  These are the lowest scores I remember.

[Jason Topp]

I enjoy Chaska a lot, but I was pretty surprised the scores were not lower.  

When is the last tie a US Am course was blitzed?  These are the lowest scores I remember.

I do not know how scoring compares to other years.  I'd be surprised if even par at the 2nd tier course is an unusual cut line.

[Gary_Nelson]

I thought they were shooting well under par at Oakland Hills a few years ago.  I seem to remember that someone shot a 29 on the front.

[Jason Topp]

2005 - avg score at Philedelphia CC - 74.268 (PAR 70)

I can't find the scoring averages at other 2nd sites but the spread eyeballs just as big at Oakmont in 2004 and at Oakland Hills 48 players broke par on the North course, far ahead of the pace of 32 Chaska is on.

[MargaretC]

I'm very bad at remembering scores from one event to another -- what were the scores like for the US Am that was played at Oakmont in 2003?  I saw a couple of those rounds and don't remember scores that low.

Speaking of Oakmont, it will be very interesting to see how the US Open plays there next year.  I love that course!  I think it is exquisite!  I'm not positive, but I think it's a little over 7200 yds, but the challenges of  Oakmont are way more than its length!

PS:  Ryan:  I did miss that shot, but ya gotta frame that photo!

[Phil_the_Author]

Amazing!

All these complaints from so many every time the U.S. Open course makes par a difficult score deriding the USGA for purposeful course set up and here come complaints about the USGA having a course play too easy!  

Amazing!

[John Kirk]

Amazing!

All these complaints from so many every time the U.S. Open course makes par a difficult score deriding the USGA for purposeful course set up and here come complaints about the USGA having a course play too easy!  

Amazing!

Yeah, maybe the guy just played lights out all day long.

 

[Matt_Cohn]

There's not point in putting too much weight on one guy shooting an unbelievable round. He beat the next best score by six shots. That's unheard of! When has anyone ever led by six after the first round of a big tournament? Ever? It's a once-in-a-lifetime round, so let's not worry about it.

What I noticed was that only a couple of guys broke par at Hazeltine. I guess 7,450 yards with 4-inch rough is enough course for everyone (except PGA Tour pro's). Not every course needs to be 8,000 yards.

[JohnV]

The average score at Hazeltine was 78.7 yesterday.  The aveage score at Chaska, even with a 60, was 74.372.  The average score at Oakmont in 2003 during stroke play was 79.016 and at the Pittsburgh Field club, 74.247.

So, the numbers aren't that far off from 2003.

One person shooting 60 isn't that big an indicator of the courses playing easier.

An even more interesting score from yesterday happened here in Pittsburgh.

Roy Vucinich, who has been a part-time player on the Champions Tour, shot his age yesterday in a Tri-State PGA event at Montour Heights.  The interesting part is that he is only 59.  It was a shotgun start.  He started on #9 where he chipped in for eagle 3.  From there, he shot 31 on the back 9 and then turned and finished the front with a 28 (8 3s and a 4).

Roy is a great guy and an excellent player who won the West Penn Open at Oakmont last year for a 5th time.  I have never heard of anyone shooting their age while still in their 50s.

[john_stiles]

One person shooting 60 isn't that big an indicator of the courses playing easier.

Roy Vucinich, who has been a part-time player on the Champions Tour, shot his age yesterday in a Tri-State PGA event at Montour Heights.  The interesting part is that he is only 59.   I have never heard of anyone shooting their age while still in their 50s.

John,

I get your point about the scoring and the deep rough and narrow fairways at Hazeltine.

But, how about 2 people shooting 60 or better, and one of them is a 59 year old shooting his age ?

John

[JohnV]

John,  Pretty amazing, but Roy has a 7 shot lead going into today so it wasn't like everyone was beating the course.

Here is the story about the 59.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/golf/s_467132.html

[Brad Klein]

John Conley,

let me get this right. A par-71 layout yields average scores of 74.37 and you think that's evidence it was too easy? With the best amateurs in the country in the field? Seems like pretty resistant scoring, if that's your concern.

MargaretC sounds awfully sensible to me on this.

[JohnV]

Brad, I agree.  The Course Rating for Chaska is 73.4.  Given that the rough is probably higher and the greens probably faster than usual the average of 74.37 is pretty accurate.

The definition of Course Rating used to be the average score that the players in the US Amateur would average during stroke play.  They got rid of that part in the last revision, but it still seems pretty accurate.

The course rating for Hazeltine is 77.8 so it is also pretty close to the 78.7.

[JohnV]

Mr. Horschel just shot 78 at Hazeltine and isn't even the leader at this point.

I just read the summary of his round and he made 6 putts of 15 feet or longer in his 60.  So he definitely had a pretty hot putter to go with some good ball striking.

[Sean Leary]

18 stroke difference between the two days. Yikes. He still may end up as medalist.

I once shot a 32/50 in one round of golf, 18 strokes between the nines.

[Brad Klein]

Sean, obviously, the front nine you played was too easy and needs to have been toughened.

[JohnV]

Sean,

Yes, he is back in a tie for medalist right now and the other guy has 18 holes to play at Hazeltine.  He will probably be medalist at 138.

[Jason Topp]

It has to be a good feeling starting the 2nd day knowing you can shoot 86 and still probably make it to match play.

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